Changing up Ninja


#21

No


#22

Okay

Here’s my argument

It’s a game

Things are not supposed to fully mirror what they would be in real life.

Also

Ninja is completely balanced, it needs no changes A T A L L. What’s the point of changing the stats? Well there is no point.

Adding another invisible class would make the game even cancerous than it already is.

Kageboshi is fine

Midnight star is the best in the game

Tiered stars are fine

This entire post was based on the fact that you don’t like ninja I’m guessing?

That’s why I replied with no because this entire post shouldn’t even exist, sorry not sorry

Personally ninja is the best class in the game and the most balanced out class overall. Nothing is wrong with it at all.

Sorry if I sounded like a dickhole but you really wanted a thought out response so here it is


#23

EZ perma invisible.


#24

Yes


#25

Are you kidding? Ninja is my favorite class. Being able to do very high damage with Stars and great crowd clearing with katanas is something that’s great with its generally high damage katanas. But it simply doesn’t work well(in terms of balance) under what it’s meant to be, and Speedy isn’t much of an original concept for Stars.

At the moment, four classes can utilize Speedy from any ability, while Invisible is only one. Using that to its full potential would allow for a much more interesting game if you do it right, and Ninja is something that is generally a strategic figure in a lot of media.

As for balance, not truthfully. In my opinion, the stats with the current Speedy is a little bit too good. You have offensive stats equal to that of the Trickster, a tool that can be used to get 25 seconds of Speedy with no pet, and an ability that can deal the highest damage or the highest Paralyze time in the game. The damage/Paralyze part is less blatantly OP, but the Speedy part is, especially considering you can stop at any time and deal massive damage.

TL;DR, Ninja is my favorite class and I can safely say it needs something more original/fair than Speedy up to 25 seconds.

Also, @Wink, you’d be sacrificing your ability to deal damage the entire time. I did mention a possible Max Hold duration in my response to RMG, too.


#26

What about not taking out speedy, but adding Armor Broken while holding?
It’ll make you think twice before trying to rush with it


#27

That’s a terrible idea; it makes the entire point of Speedy almost entirely unusable.


#28

Not really. You still have something called dodge, and if you’re gonna give ninja the ability to go perma invisible you have to give him a motive to NOT do so everytime, since perma invisible is pretty OP after all (Rogues have CDs for a reason).
You can always rush without holding the key on dangerous zones (Like Oryx rooms on LH, yet you can use it on golem rooms or crusades)
Also it kinda fit the stereotype of ninja


#29

“Invisible and Stunned”

And there’s still that “Max Hold duration” idea I came up with when responding to RMGNoob.


#30

I’m just saying that even with stunned it’s pretty OP. Not being able to attack won’t hurt too much your ability to rush most dungeons (aside cdepths and some others like that), And max hold duration will just be: release the button->press again. Even if you add a CD for that you’ll just make a rogue lookalike and lose identity as a class, just a stunned rogue (And with rogue’s DPS, it’s not a big difference).

It doesn’t need to be armor break, but something that not only gives him balance as a class, but that also make people think about Ninja’s invisibility as something totally different than rogue’s one (Even Curse/exposed works, or a debuff applied after he releases the key since he’ll lose stunned)

Took a while since i was on a cult run


#31

Invisible and Stunned already limits your options and gives the Ninja a feeling as if he really is that: a Ninja.

If you’re hidden in a real situation, then attacking gives away your position, and that makes it stand on a logical standpoint. From a mechanical standpoint, you are not able to utilize your most vital function - which is high damage - until you let go of spacebar. This makes you have to choose between giving up your damage for an extended period of time, or for a select amount of time so you can get into a position that you can use effectively.

Besides, being able to rush dungeons with Invisible isn’t really an issue. Anyone can rush anything with any class as is, especially ones without Invisible. I’ve seen someone rush around a Lost Halls with a Priest before.


#32

Yes , please . Why does he even have 70 wisdom? He have same speed as sorc. Ninja is supposted to be fast by general .


#33

Nice. You just turned the ninja into a rogue.


#34

phenomenal comprehension skills


#35

If you still haven’t noticed, the Ninja is the only class that does not get to top numbers on stats (refer to colored stats on wiki’s classes page). The only ok change here would be the wisdom, but still not necessary.

I shouldn’t even need to comment, but really? 1600 average true damage on multiple targets?

As a last note, I recommend not adding infinite status effects on every class you try to balance or create, it’s not healthy dude, just stop.

The Ninja plays different from every single class in the game, a melee on leather armor, and that’s his major point. The speedy from the shuriken doesn’t make a lot of sense (what, it motivates you to go faster?) but a shuriken making you invisible makes even less sense. It’s just game balance to help it be a melee that’ll explode in a billion pieces when in contact with anything.

You need to take a lot more in consideration when you try to change/add anything in a game. Just try to do that, ok?


#36

And it’s probably the most dumb “specialty” that a class can have, having zero top stats.

With far more cooldown and much less range.

Invisible on a Ninja not making sense is like a Shield on a Knight not making sense. Ninjas are meant to be hidden, it’s something they’re known for. “a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.” (dictionary.com)

Which I did do. I didn’t just “OH INVISIBLE AND STUNNED”, I thought about how it would affect gameplay. The added damage to tiered stars I can maybe say I went somewhat overboard, but that’s one thing, and I’m fine with changing it. Everything else, though, I took into consideration.


#37

Dumb or not, it’s his specialty, if you play him enough you’ll understand why. Not great at everything, but not bad at anything, one of the classes with highest skill caps, if not the number one.

The cooldown is just enough for pets to regen all that mana, extra 800 permanent DPS for divine pet owners (like 1/5 DPS of an acclaim warrior, since people love to use it as basis). Not balancing something around pets is as bad as balancing around them only.
And considering the katana’s range is 4.75, won’t matter much if the shuriken’s range is 5 or 15. Sure, not always you’ll be that close, but range per damage trade out is far off decent.

Ah, yes, exactly what I said. Just because there is a ninja in the game, doesn’t mean he has to be hidden, they went with another trait, and that’s speed, ninjas are also known for being fast and deadly. Rogue is already playing the invisible role.

If you want this big of a defensive ability, being invisible (which renders you extremly safe, hence rogues almost hugging Cube Gods), then you haven’t considered his balance, which is insane damage output reaping through enemies by an extremely fast character but said character is easily exploded.

Only two characters bring more than one buff in their tiered abilities, Priest and Paladin, and neither of those deal as much damage as the Ninja (one has high damage, the other has pierce, Ninja has both) and neither of those go invisible.

It’s basic balance on our beloved Ninja, go ham or go home, miss me with that cloaking.


#38

This.

Anyways…

5 tiles can mean a lot if you want to make the most use of it, since you would have to be much closer to deal the damage. On top of that, the cooldown would matter whether you have a pet or not, since in 2 seconds you could be using 3 or 4 shurikens with no pet depending on your gear/consumables, and 3 for sure with a good pet. You miss out on 5 tiles and range and some overall damage due to much higher cooldown, in favor of more immediate damage.

I’ve heard this argument plenty. I’ll do a simplificiation of the point:
Rogue - Mainly uses invisible to deal damage safely.
Current Ninja - Uses Speedy for… going fast? Three other classes already do this.
This Ninja - Mainly uses invisible to sneak by or get into a proper position to attack.

It’s not a replacement or anything like that like people seem to think. The added Stunned makes you have to use it more sparingly around enemies that you need to damage, since you are not able to attack.

Rogues aren’t stunned while invisible.

This is one buff and one debuff to counter it being abused. What’s your point here?


#39

Small update to main post.


#40

Why not? What is it meant to be? Seems a perfectly fine class for me, melee weapon on leather armor takes quite some learning to be played correctly, 60 speed for combat is just fine and can go fast at will to escape situations, given you don’t run into something else with potato maneuvering (has happened to me quite a few times).

But invisibility would just destroy that learning curve. Need to escape? How about disappearing from existence and be able to sit on anything that doesn’t fire automatically and reappearing exactly when you want, way better than a timed rogue. It’s a full switch from offense to defense, and this isn’t good in terms of balance, our Ninja rushes in, deals damage and rushes back out, he’s not about easy survivability.

With that mp cost, this cooldown doesn’t mean anything. A petless player won’t bother with using it more than twice per battle, and one with a divine pet will regen just enough mana on that time.

Which is exactly why they have 75 speed, to be able to run and deal decent damage on the invisibility period. An invisible character with 75 speed is only good for rushing, you don’t want that much speed ruining your perfect positioning to set up an attack (just tapping your keyboard with 75 speed is a lot different from 60 speed).
On the same note, I’ll quote Seelpit directly, from another thread about the Ninja, about 75 speed and speedy with your change on Midnight Star:

Also, I seem to notice that there’s a trend among posts regarding a Ninja buff: 75 speed.
I really don’t understand this - 60 spd is perfectly in the middle. You’re not as fast as a dagger class because of your Star’s Speedy bonus, which is a compensation of some kind for that.
60 speed allows for agile movement that gives you an edge, but doesn’t send you flying into the sun if you hold down that A key for more than 0,2-19561396713976 milliseconds.
Ninja is kinda bad, so let's fix it

And since these arguments aren’t being enough coming from me, let us hear it directly from you, on the same thread as the quote above: