Current state of the game [new topic]


#1

As of right now, I see multiple things that realm should handle:

  1. Numbers

  2. Content

  3. Depth

  4. Pets

  5. Unlockable content

  6. Purchasable content

  7. Numbers, pretty vague I guess

Let’s start with the leveling process. A player starts out at level 1 and maxes out at level 20. Unfortunately, the game offers very little content during this time frame and by contrast, offers a mountain of content upon reaching level 20. In my view, having levels lacks great meaning whatsoever. Rather, the leveling system was implemented to further enhance the fact was the game is permadeath and serve as a time-out chair for a person who lost a character.

On the flip side, getting to level 20 is not of major difficulty as one can simply collect xp from other players farming the godlands.

The leveling system lacks content and purpose, as it serves as a time-out chair to make the experience of permadeath even more difficult.

Next of all, there are the lv 20 stats to consider. Every time a player levels up, the character gains a random stat increase range for all stats. Players may be fortunate and have a good roll, or be burdened with a poor one. Got negatives in all stats? Well, go kill your character and start over!
Given how the game places little emphasis on leveling, this feature is obsolete and serves as a burden to a player, who died, got another level 20 - only to discover how bad the rng is.

While some may say that leveling provides a new players an experience, I would argue that it is more of a feature that can make rebuilding even more annoying and painful. Eventually the game turns into a monotonous wheel of: get to level 20, grind dungeons for max stats, die, and repeat. I am very sure that most would rather get rid of the level 20 part, as there is little content to be offered in that phase and seriously, no one cares about the lowerland monsters and what they drop (asides from the Candy Gnome). All they want to do is go to the god lands so they can earn short-term and much more useful rewards.

Both of these features inhibit player experience and must be reevaluated.

Let us now bring up the concept of fame. Fame is one of the things that persists between character deaths and serves very little function within the game. Players can acquire fame by collecting xp by killing monsters and reaching the fame gain cap, gain character fame at a 1 fame : 2000 xp ratio. To make matters worse, it is only officially acquired through dying.

Now sure, it is a permadeath game, but when considering the behavior and design of bosses and monsters, it becomes clear that the game is hell-bent on killing characters in various sorts of ways:

  1. Shotguns (Good luck playing a melee class and not feeling annoyed when you get instakilled)
    When considering the fact that this game is bullet hell, the benefits of sacrificing range for more damage and a bit more durability shows how poorly the game was thought out. A great deal of monsters simply spray a bunch of bullets and while they may not be lethal from afar, will be for short ranged classes. (Which is why pets are of a hot commodity) Playing a class that lacks range and has a tiny bit more health is nothing short of demanding to lose the character (Not if you have a maxed pet).
  2. Hidden status markers - If you were a new player and decided to stun a dangerous monster that has hidden status immunities, you would surely yell out “That’s not fair. How was I supposed to know that it’s immune?!” And then the community steps in and tells the player to stfu and deal with it. A character death should not be the result of a lazy programming attempt and key information hidden from the player.
  3. Quiet - This was clearly the result of lazy programming. From what I know, quiet was mainly designed to nerf the Rogue class (shouldn’t they have reworked all of the classes instead?) and knocks the player’s MP and Wisdom to 0 for a period of time. That is by far, much too extreme considering how common this status is. If the devs wanted to program a status effect that did not allow the casting of abilities, they should have programmed in the silence status effect.
    While they did nerf rogue, they actually nerfed all of the classes at the same time. Given how simplistic the game is, an ability is what defines each and every class for each other. In fact, it can be argued that every class lives on its ability.
    Oh and by the way, it would not be rare for a new rogue player to die because of the quiet will uncloak stealth and this effect is nowhere indicated in-game and is another case of a hidden status effect.

When comparing game design and genres, permadeath is a rather niche genre and can be rather known for providing a negative experience. Others and much more successful games go by a system of progression - any time spent into the game will be saved into it, which is why it is more worthwhile to play such a game. You play it, you earn something.
Unfortunately, when considering realm, you can play it, but will you earn something from it? All that time spent in a character can vanish in a matter of seconds. And what do you get in return for playing? Fame and a possible rank increase. That is all. Fame serves little purpose within the game and can not be quickly amassed in large amounts. When considering how little stays behind in such a game, a player would rather much play a game that rewards he/she with its experience and virtual rewards. On the other hand, the only thing that realm really offers its just the experience (not the best experience). That is all.

Realm needs to lessen the punishments of the permadeath and recognize how outdated its game philosophy is.

Not only so, shouldn’t it be recognized that a notable amount of assets, monsters, and items are dedicated in the leveling process that has a lack of meaning? No one cares about the lowerland monsters and the low tier items. A player can easily pick up semi-viable t6 weapons and t7-9 items in the godlands.
It’s laughable how large the realm is when people are only interested in the godlands.

While some may say that the lowerlands provide an experience for the new players, shouldn’t it be recognized that this is merely due to the fact on how inadequate the tutorial is? If a player were to be informed that stat pots make up the bulk of trading aspect of the game and that it is not hard to level up in the godlands, they would do what everyone else does - Go to the godlands. No one would care about the lowerlands if that were the case.

Next up is the issue of rank, which is also earned by amassing a certain amount of fame for each individual class. While its main design was to create a status hierarchy among players, it does not in anyway achieve that objective. One can simply fame train or collect xp in known-areas and someday gain a white star - All without ever doing endgame content or dungeons. Not only so, how would one differentiate the difference between a white star that fame trained and a white star that has earned the star in the way it was intended to be? Thus, rank is just another issue that shows how poorly thought out this game was.

While I may be proposing a makeshift solution, I am suggesting that the rank system should be removed and replaced with an Account Leveling system, in which players collect xp to increase their account level, which follows an exponential curve. While one can still xp farm and get a high account level, it should be recognized that a white star that has played the game for many years will have a higher account level and status above the “white star” that fame trained. Not only so, the replacement current of the ranking system would very much discourage players from fame training as the Account Leveling system will not have an end, whereas the ranking system had an end - the white star, which is why players were motivated to get it.

Asides from Account leveling, I would also like to propose the concept of Account Achievements, trophies that can be used to further distinguish players by experience. Such a feature would include things such as dungeon completions (not based by going through the fucking portal) that are specific to each dungeon and incremented only when the player is present, within a certain range of the boss when it is defeated, and participated in achieving its demise (in other words, deal damage to it).

I would also include the displaying of scores from Ranked Dungeons (A concept that I have yet to mention) as well.

As for now, the Fame system is in need of a decisive rework as it lacks almost any importance whatsoever. I would very much suggest that fame gained by a character is directly transferred into account fame while the fame bonuses upon death are added in later, when the character actually dies. (I mean, you don’t have to be dead to be famous right? If you achieved something, you’d be famous for it now and honoured for it when you die).

(The other points will be covered a bit later. I’ve got some personal work of my own to handle as well.)


#2

:+1:

To everyone, please let’s not discuss the previous thread in this one, even if you don’t like OP very much.

I reckon everything’s been said on your first point in said previous thread, but I’ll say something too.

A fame rework is coming already supposedly, so your last point stands true that it doesn’t make sense how players grouping together earn thousands of fame, and normal play is much less rewarding in comparison. And yeah, a character’s fame I suppose is currently not added to your account while it’s alive thanks to fame bonuses. Maybe Deca will try fix that in the Unity remake.

I don’t think it should be lessened, to be honest. Rather, I think I remember you mentioning a Tutorial remake, which should cover aspects of the game like Pets, the Vault (most important as newer players I’ve talked to don’t seem to understand it), and explain permadeath properly. Also, explaining features such as nexusing.

As for older players, yeah I agree shotguns are bs. Maybe a better way of expressing when enemies will attack would help, like the Garnet and Jade statues.
Permadeath should remove everything you’ve worked up to because that’s the point of it, to be honest. If your items were transported back to your gift chest or something it would make dying way less important and people wouldn’t care about dying.

As for ‘hidden status effects’, it probably lies in the fact that character abilities aren’t explained in detail. “enemies stunned for 3 seconds” is all you get. Maybe a revamped character screen which explains the abilities in more detail, showing maxed stats, and character pros and cons? Also explaining that some enemies can’t be stunned/paralysed/stasised etc?
I dunno :man_shrugging:

Either way, I’ll offer a more in depth analysis if/when you post your next points since these have already been discussed in the previous thread.


#3

Fair point. Deca has tried to add content for newer players but the Hive doesn’t really cut it. Engaging dungeons/challenges while leveling should be implemented. (Also the Hive too challenging for new players imo)

I disagree with this point, however. When I was a wee-little RotMG lad, I would just try and try so many times just to get that coveted level 20. For newer players, when they are just experiencing everything, I feel like the leveling process doesn’t reach that level of tedium that you get when you are more experienced.

On the contrary, I feel like the random rolls are nice as its another aspect of the game that no one can control. RotMG, as I have stated in previous posts, is a very RNG-heavy game, so I don’t really see a problem with this.

Why can’t it be both? (Which it is) It can provide new players an experience and be tedious to older players. Like I said, maybe you could have more engaging fights and dungeons, but this post so far just seems like an attack on permadeath.

Every experienced player knows this. They all know that the game is grind-heavy, which is why there is so much demand for new content in the first place. I don’t really see what your point is.

Yes, let’s just chuck all the new players in the deep end when there is already such a huge learning curve.

It should be reevaluated, just not in the way you’re proposing.

Keep in mind that Kabam made pets and shotguns a staple of RotMG. Lots of players are able to get around this tho. Also keep in mind Deca is trying their darndest to fix the abuse that pets are. I do think Deca is being a bit too overkill when it comes to balancing classes in their boss fights. Also, I’d argue that most players would rather choose a melee despite “demanding to lose a character”

I’ll talk about the rest of your post later when I have more time, this was a rushed response

What you’re proposing is a rework of the game, something (a.) Deca can’t and (b.) won’t implement. Hate to break it to you, but its true. Fame obviously needs a rework (which is coming) and achievements have been proposed several times.


#4

it was here I wondered if OP died on a lot of melee classes…


#5

It’ll be difficult, I imagine, to reply without every post being a wall of text, because there are so many interlinked issues over the years and every change has knock-on effects. I’ll reply about what I think are the key issues.

The main brutality of permadeath in current Realm is that soulbound items are so difficult to replace, meaning players are ever more likely to have an “I quit” moment after a death.

The original design was you could reacquire whatever you’d lost (through trading), which made the whole thing less of a kick. Essentially the only thing you lost was your fame bar went back to 0.

So if the move to Unity means full trading becomes possible again, that would be a way to lessen individual deaths, back to how the original concept was.

Powercreep over the years is what’s responsible for 85% of the realm map and enemies and levelling now being pointless. A common thing in long lasting games, but maybe uncommonly Rotmg’s was driven from survivability to overcome the permadeath threat. We are supersurvivable due to pets (and don’t underestimate how many use hack autonexus) so we can spend almost all of our time in what originally was the endgame state with maxed stats, instead of most players being in the levelling and 0/8 bracket.

With the game’s shared XP and co-op focus, it is natural that the weaker characters are drawn to where the majority of players are able to survive, so leaving most of the map deserted.

This turned what used to be a mostly relaxed game where you might potter about the realm levelling, only doing 2 or 3 abilities a minute, and the main threat was grey blobs kamikazeing, into a so much faster paced action oriented game, 40+ ability uses a minute. It’s funny to go back and watch some pre-pet YT vids from time to time and remember the old slow game.

But I can’t agree with those who get really mad saying levelling is intolerable, when you can level up entirely in 1.5 UDLs/5-10 minutes, in a game where you’re talking about playing for hours in a day it’s just not that much effort.

Immune Markers: eg. no sign that enemies are unstunnable. An icon would do no harm (with a menu option/hotkey to turn off for players who know it and don’t want the screen clutter). Though it does already show the “Immune” word appearing, and the game can’t signpost everything, since you also can’t know enemy behaviour, eg. Temple Statues rushing at you, until learned.

Quiet vs Silenced: This is just a holdover from the original game, back then our WIS replenished so slowly, ~30 seconds for one ability reuse, that a Quiet of 5 sec just wasn’t as significant. But yes in current game with WIS restocked in seconds, now that Deca has invented Silenced some of the harsher Quiets (eg. Sprite God) could be replaced, and save Quiet to be a more serious effect.

Star Rank: There never was anything more indepth about this other than to give players a long term goal. 2000 used to be difficult to achieve, powercreep means it’s not. The rest is just people interpreting whatever they want out of it, eg. see: What does a star mean to you? for some really divergent views.

Death fame has always been a problem when they started to use fame for currency. An awesome skilled player who never died would never have any to spend! So yes hopefully the fame rework Deca’s spoken of will allow achievements to directly grant account fame like you describe.


#6

But shouldn’t the game give something back in return for all that work spent into a now-gone character? If you were a new player looking into the game, I don’t think you would like the idea that when your character dies, the game goes,“You died, congrats. Now start over. Oh and you don’t get anything else. Just play and die.”
There should be a system of progression of some sort that allows the player to earn rewards no matter how many times they suffer a setback or have to start all over again. If that is all permadeath offers, a new player would rather pick up a new game that has more worthwhile things to offer.

But if the tutorial said that some enemies are stun immune, wouldn’t that make knight players much more wary? The shield has very little range and given how many monsters fire shotguns, knight players would either not use their shields or not bother to play the class at all.
Stun immunity should have its own status marker so players can know if its a good idea to fly in at close range and get that risky stun off.


#7

There are quite a few UTs that lack any function within the game and are extensively situational, such the EP, or the shield of ogmur. Wouldn’t be a fair idea that certain UTs serve as unlockable items?
For certain UTs, the value and rarity are not balanced in anyway whatsoever. Not only so, given how rare certain UTs are, how much would they be worth? The value and rarity of certain UTs rarity greatly exceed the merits of trading one away for some simple consumables. Take the jugg or the tome of holy protection as an example. How much do you think they would be worth given how low the drop rate is?
Valuable UTs are greatly sought after, but when considering the supply and demand of the items, in the end, purchasing a UT would still be very uncommon and be almost the equivalent of having it drop.


#8

I’ve played many bullet hell games, such as: Enter the Gungeon, The Binding of Issac, and Touhou series. Believe me, you will want that range if you play bullet hell. You should consider how many monsters in the game fire shotguns. Shotguns deal the most damage to close range targets and are less effective for those further away from the blast.
That extra 200+ health on a melee class compared to a wand user does not justify the reduction in range and increase in damage. Nowadays, higher level monsters and bosses fire streams of 100+ damage shots and some bosses fire shotguns of 200+ damage shots that apply negative status effects.


#9

No, make two separate realms. One for the lower-skill players and contains the lowerlands content, while the other is for veteran players and contains only the godlands.
At this point, the lowerlands is basically eye-candy, especially for the players that always go to the godlands. More emphasis needs to be placed on the content that almost no one cares about.


#10

I am merely stating that realm’s permadeath should involve into a more lenient version. If you spent a lot of time and effort and got an 8/8 character that died, shouldn’t you expect something in return? The game needs to find a way to reward its players more for their time and devotion into this game.

If the game did not have a fame system (which is pretty much obsolete), then what would be the purpose of the game? Play and have fun? Grind up a 8/8 character, only to watch it die and start all over again? There is no way to “win” at this game. There is no end to it. Even if you cleared a shatters or a lost halls by yourself, do you get something permanent and worthwhile at all? When you die, you pretty much lose everything. You lose your character, as well as the time and effort you spent into making it. I am highly certain that the reason why the game is unappealing for other players is that fact that the permadeath system of realm is almost the equivalent of death in the real world. If you were to suddenly die right now, you lose everything. You would lose your existence and your consciousness as well.
If a player achieves something, it should be kept and he/she should be rewarded for it. Offering a fun experience that is merely temporary will keep potential players away.


#11

My solution for early game definitely forces in more early game but still nonetheless makes permadeath more punishing
I would vouch for leveling up taking longer, late game items, pots, and candies requiring a minimum level to use, and minimum level to endgame dungeons (basically, no level limit for every pre-glands dungeon, must be level 10 to do glands dungeons, and must be level 15 to do event god dungeons, and lastly level 20 to do LH, Shatts, and Nest, no level limit on court dungeons, oryx’s castle, chamber, and wine cellar), and much more pre-glands dungeons and UTs
I imagine that this would be extremly controversial though


#12

I never said that leveling is hard or intolerable. It is just ironic how much assets are devoted towards leveling when the process itself lacks any significance in the game. The game is pretty much all about maxing out your stats, getting fame (which is obsolete), clearing high-level dungeons, and getting a white star. All of this is only applicable for level 20 characters. If that were the case, then what function do levels 1 -19 serve in this game then?
If the new players need to get acclimated to the feel of the game, wouldn’t it be a better idea to designate an easier permadeath realm for them?
As of now, the current realms showcase a great portion of the map specially designed for levels 1-20, while there are fewer tiles of content in the realm for level 20s. If the realms were to represent how content is designated, more emphasis should be placed on the leveling process rather than on post-level 20 activities. It’s pretty ironic in my opinion.

Wouldn’t it be more logical to have a permadeath realm for the new players and another for the skilled players?
In many ways, the leveling system is basically a time-out chair for the more-skilled players to further emphasize the harshness of permadeath. Losing all of your items, fame, and stats, as well as getting nothing in return is already bad enough. There is no need to have a time-out chair.


#13

They’ll have to think about it either way if there are barely any new players coming in and there are players leaving the game. When was the last time you saw a new player (that is not a bot)? It’s been ages since I last saw one. In fact, there is a star rank statistic chart that shows how many active and created accounts are for the various star ranges. The number of blue stars shows how unengaging and poorly designed realm is. If people really liked the game, there should be a lot more players of a higher star rank because they’ve played the game much longer than the new players.
Sure, a portion of it would be bots, but given on how long the game has been here, the ratio of blues to other colors should be much more lower.
The game needs more new players that will think that it’s worthwhile to play the game.


#14

If they were to kill off pets, they might as well remove the melee classes as well, especially when considering the endgame dungeons. In most cases, melee classes often take more damage than they can handle, which is pretty much why I’ve never seen a petless melee class last very long.


#15

I don’t think we have to worry about pets being removed anytime soon; some people have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on their pets, and I think DECA is aware of the backlash. Most pet-balancing dungeons rely highly on status effects–and yes, instakill shotguns–to balance out different pet levels.

Inn addition, I think it should be noted that just prior to DECA’s arrival, melees were incredibly overpowered in comparison to other classes, with very few anti-melee dungeons (while melee-friendly dungeons like the abyss of demons provided substantial wealth to farmers) or encounters. DECA had to actually rebalance certain aspects of the game to make ranged classes more viable, which resulted in many of these insta-kill shotguns you mentioned.


#16

Fame —> Pets —> More survivability —> More fame —> Pets again.

Rinse and repeat.

Of course, the game was not designed this way.
But as you eventually get better, you can not only dodge better (more experience) but also you have a better pet.

I don’t want to insult you, but I don’t think you’re experienced enough in the game to criticize it. The game used to be much, much harder.

White stars were rare, 8/8s were a sign of mastery, and UTs were a sign of wealth, not luck.

Oh and also you used to be able to wear an amulet that would save you from death 1 time.


#17

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I personally think that, instead of leveling being removed completely (which would…kind of make EXP values even more weird than they already are, since they’re (supposedly) balanced around the level of the average player encountering them), it should indeed hold more value.
Not necessarily increasing the amount of EXP required to level up, but potentially some sort of…I’m not sure, unlocking progress is the only way I could put it.
To find more balance between non-max leveled characters and fully maxed characters, is what I think I’m trying to convey.
Talking is hard, as is explaining things…


#18

Honestly I think he is kinda trying to stir up drama. But idrc.
/off topic


#20

I don’t want to insult you, but I think you should take into account that this game is not popular among newer players. I have read every page on the wiki and have first started playing at least 4 years ago.

And that is a factor that explains the game’s decline.


#21

And how did I insult you when everyone else called me an idiot and a moron? As far as I can tell, I probably haven’t used any hard language against you.