Lost Halls, Why It's Bad for the Game, and Possible Solutions

#66

not actively standing up against an account stealer is effectively supporting it. watching someone get bullied and simply being a bystander is just as bad. given you’re a hacker your argument carries pretty much zero weight dude

#67

uh, not really.
There’s no denying that a lot of people use the discord but there’s many others who, you know, actually play the game.

The people running the discord are mostly interested in one thing, and that’s LH runs. It’s in the name. While you can certainly say they hold some responsibility I think you’re giving them too much credit considering they’re just players who happened to start a server for running a dungeon in a game, said server happening to get popular. In the end they’re not exactly anyone who you should be approaching when we’re talking about hackers or account thieves, you should go to DECA who actually own the game.

It’s a no-brainer that they should ban blatant hackers or rule breakers whenever they know such people are in the discord but you’re relying on people, some of which are probably teenagers, to judge evidence that can easily be faked or not even good enough to prove someone guilty of something, even though they’re just there to run dungeons. Best to leave that to the people actually meant to deal with player reports.

I’m confused on how you have this much evidence and are still not clear on what they actually did. Did they take your account? If yes, does your constant referral to them as a scammer mean you tried to sell your account? If not, how did they get access in the first place without you having given them access to your email/account or similar? If not, and it’s someone else’s account, how do you have access to any evidence?

Seriously, this kind of thing isn’t a joke, with the wrong approach you can get a bunch of innocent people banned. So unless your evidence 100% confirms someone as a scammer then it’s hard to pass judgement.

If you tried to sell your account, that’s on you, and against ToS, plus hard to prove. If they got access to your account or email, proving that it was yours is hard given some randoms on a discord server don’t have access to any information Deca has like any transactions or passwords or security questions, especially if it’s your email they have since even Deca can’t do shit about that.

isn’t this another way of saying ‘cheaters shouldn’t be banned/disallowed from playing the game’

But the fact is with one of those situations you have direct proof something bad is happening and you actually have the power to stop it. Guess which one that is.

Yeah, watching an alleged account stealer going around can be upsetting, but in that case why not approach the people who can 100% do something about it if your proof is that solid? In this case, y’know, Deca. This is like someone having to take your word that someone’s bullying and said person is just a random guy you found on the football team who you think can do something about it, and you then being upset when they don’t do anything. You approach the teachers in that middle school analogy.

Anyhow, it’s a case-by-case basis they probably run. Just because someone didn’t accept your evidence doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all supporters of scamming.

I don’t particularly care much for any raiding discord or anyone who supports breaking rules but I think you’re just approaching the wrong people with this problem.

#68

what do you mean i’m not clear on what they actually did- they stole a friends account and attempted to compromise their paypal, and stole the email associate with the account too. i made that clear from the start?

i also already said that i gave sufficient evidence, the moderators i contacted literally replied with “if it didn’t happen here, we do not care”. you’re just making me repeat myself lol

no that’s not another way of saying that, if you’re implying trying to sell your valuable account on a game is just as bad as stealing from people - then lol.

i’m not gonna bother replying to the last thing because you’re just making me repeat myself again

#69

The game was conceptually ‘complete’ at Oryx 2. Bosses for every stat potion, tops tiers at the final boss. For anything more end-game, it should’ve been a major game mechanic addition (e.g. a ‘void realm’ where defeating all event quests summons players to lost halls after beating O2) instead of just adding a new dungeon that can also be purchased by via keys. That’s just a very sloppy design decision aimed at quick release and cash-grab.

Once the mess is in place, it’s no longer a matter of how to make the game better, but how to make it less garbage.

#70

Finally, a good opinion

#71

Pretty sure the WC was released before Tomb and OT, with OT being the last of the three to be implemented.

“conceptually complete” sounds like an overly pretentious misnomer since, by definition, a 100% online game can never be complete. I think you were going for something closer to “core content” or “foundation of the game”.

How is a copy-paste job of the already existent realm system a “major game mechanic addition”?

Anything more mentally taxing than “run through while mowing down everything in your way” inevitably results in leeching, rushing ahead and dragging. That’s why it has to be separated from the main game in some way, hence why it’s put in new dungeons with purchasable keys.

One of the main reasons this game is still around is because players would rather pay real money for every single dungeon they run than leave for a MMO with a real functioning private party system.

#72

re: the discussion earlier about pub halls and “it’s deca’s responsibility to stop hackers”

I respect Pub Halls. It’s incredibly useful and there are a lot of good and helpful people there. But I’m disappointed that I can see that it can be better, but it isn’t.

Pub Halls, the largest RotMG-related Discord server, states itself to be “hacker-neutral”. This is defined as “we do not condone hacking but will not punish those who do” in their server’s rules.
For starters, let’s attempt to break down this statement that reads as incredibly contradictory.
image
The first definition is already out because if they are not punishing anyone for hacking then they are allowing people to hack.
So let’s roll with the second definition. Pub Halls does not approve of people hacking, but won’t punish those who do.

First of all, I disagree with this on a basic level. They are the largest RotMG-related Discord server. They have massive influence in the community and can spare so much while still retaining dominance. Yet they just don’t do anything about cheaters who make the playing field unfair for everyone.
Many look up to Pub Halls as a role model, because they are a massive discord server. And they see that this representation of the community just kind of openly houses cheaters. People can post incredibly blatant hacked client screenshots and they’ll just get their screenshot deleted, they’re still around and doing runs.
I won’t deny it is Deca’s job to actually take action against hackers through bans and such (more on that another day, perhaps? I have a lot to say about how Deca has been handling this…), but the community mentality cannot be ignored, either. If cheaters are welcomed into the community, then people aren’t really discouraged to cheat. We are social creatures, and we like doing what other people are doing because we want to fit in. If other people are cheating, the naive newer player will probably want to as well. This either doesn’t improve the situation, or makes it worse.
I would liken it to littering on the floor and justifying it by saying the janitor is paid to clean up the mess. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be trying your best to not make a mess in the first place. It would literally be better for everyone if you just didn’t litter.
Normalizing cheating is just a terrible thing to do. It’s a terrible look for the community. It would be wonderful if the largest Discord in the game adopted a strict no-hacking policy so an example could be set.

From my understanding, Pub Halls works on a two-strike rule for their RLs and staff. If you’re caught hacking, that’s one of your strikes. But you still have one more strike, and “caught” implies that you’re open enough about your hacks that someone managed to catch you in the act, usually through taking screenshots that show hacked client features. Those screenshots tend to be posted on the Pub Halls discord itself, since the RLs spend a lot of time on it.
That looks really bad to the public, especially given the screenshots are then deleted once found out and likely nothing will happen to the RL right then and there. That looks an awful lot like approving of hacks, especially given the majority of people on there do not know about the two-strike rule at all.

The Shatters Discord is also hacker-neutral. However, they have a strict rule against any of their RLs, including event RLs, hacking; there are no multiple strikes. They’re still hacker-neutral. But they are a better influence to the community by not having literal cheaters in their staff team, and they seem to be doing pretty well even with that rule in place. And they’re a smaller Discord than Pub Halls. I don’t think Pub Halls would have any problem finding RLs that are clean given the size of the Discord.

I’m not even going to go into the fact that Pub Halls event RLs often use notifiers which is a violation of Deca ToS, this is practically an open secret. I’m also not going to go too much into the fact that I wouldn’t say it’s a rare occurrence to see discussion of content that violates ToS in the Pub Halls chat channels. This is not a recent occurrence, I have seen this on and off throughout over at least half a year’s time, and it’s not arguably “borderline” discussion either; it’s quite blatant (one example being someone asking about what is clearly a hacked client feature and the response being along the lines of “it works like x but haha don’t talk about it here lol!”), and that sounds like approval of hacking to me, honestly. If you genuinely don’t approve of hacks, the discussion should be deleted. Perhaps they don’t have enough chat moderation? That’s an easy fix.

The fact of the matter is that a sizable portion of the community doesn’t care about playing fair, which in term means they don’t care about the longevity of the game. If they can get ahead of the competition by either cheating or piggybacking off of people who do, that’s good for them. Which I can’t inherently say is wrong, because I’m sure those people are still having fun with the game and enjoying it. However, it’s terrible for growing the game and its community further. It’s a very short-term mentality which, as I’ve said, isn’t inherently wrong, because for many Realm is a fun distraction and there is nothing wrong in obtaining that from the game.
But for people who you may argue dedicate even too much time to the game, who flesh out the community and contribute through writing guides or editing wiki pages for example (which helps draw new players in because terrible documentation helps no one), it’s incredibly unappealing to not be playing on a level playing field. Sensible people will leave and find another game to consider as a hobby, one that isn’t poison, because why dedicate so much time to something where you feel like people are constantly taking a dump on your head? There are so many wonderful games out there that aren’t being mishandled by the developers and aren’t painful to play.

#73

It’s been ten years and the only consensus RotMG players have ever been able to reach on ToS breaking is “everything is fine, as long as it’s a Youtuber I like or one of my friends doing it”.

Making a guild of like-minded people who agree with your personal stance is one thing, doing the same thing with a public Discord thousands of players strong is another entirely.

A single Discord server being this important in the game is something that should never have happened in the first place, and now you want the people running it to start making their own rules and enforcing them more strictly? Looks like the perfect recipe for a small circlejerk to have way too much power over everybody else.

Either keep that one server around and keep it as neutral as possible, or splinter it into a variety of server that each have their own rules. Anything else is going to eventually result in disaster.

#74

There’s been a variety of posts since this one, but I thought I would address this video in particular because it seems to be based primarily on a common, false misconception among players: that hackers don’t actually do harm to other players by hacking, and if anything, make the game easier for others.

It is true that having a hacker rush a dungeon for you will make your life easier and allow you to get loot faster. A hacker at the boss can decoy or go deep when others might be unable to, and ensure that others live. However, there is a significant downside to this.

The game was designed around legitimate players playing by the rules, with boss fight difficulty and attack patterns based on the idea that getting hit would actually affect players and cause them to possibly die. With hackers, the equation changes. As @Toastrz (former UGC member and current DECA developer) stated in a reddit post (I do not currently know where the post is, but I can probably produce it if someone wants), the presence of hackers has had noticeable effects on how fights are designed; developers now have to take into consideration the fact that many people hack, and this prevents them from making use of a variety of attack patterns and types that they can otherwise implement. This hurts the game by reducing the variety in encounter types that can be used, and thus prevents growth in this area.

Then there’s the matter of autonexus. When an 8/8 character dies, it requires something on the order of hundreds of def pots worth of wealth to rebuild this character. This can be done through ppe form, or, more commonly, by trading with other players. Whether the rebuilding player has to farm pots to trade for other ones or if they just have a boatload of life pots in reserve that they can exchange for necessary potions, there’s a lot of inter-player exchange that must occur.

When autonexus kicks in, those pots aren’t needed. The character lives, and rebuilding doesn’t occur. As a result, the demand for those hundreds of def pots that would otherwise exist doesn’t materialize. The market, as a result, continues to get more and more pots, without a high enough demand to match the influx. This is minor when one or two players do it, but when such a huge portion of the playerbase hacks, it is quite noticeable.

Hacks have a huge effect on the game, and it’s not for the better. If we want this game to be friendly to new players and diverse in its experiences, then everyone in the game-- especially those who take it upon themselves to have as massive an effect on the community as discord moderators-- must do their part to fight hacking and prevent others from trashing the game we all love.

#75

I greatly like that Life is currently cheaper because of LH and I believe it makes the end game content more accessible for every single player who no longer needs to fear losing their character and all the days they spent maxing them. The overall pace of the game is sped up and new players become strong players faster because experience is now more worth getting than sticking to the safe and dull. If players burn themselves out running lost halls only then I think they’re missing the point of this game and all its various content (I’m looking at you, Shaitan’s).

#76

That’s the problem. It’s endgame content, intended for only the top end of players already maxed or at least competent at the game. How is something meant to be endgame if a 0/8 character with godlands gear can hop into some discord run and literally just walk along with the group and get free fame, potentially gear and pots?

#77

The problem is that Lost Halls is by far the most profitable and efficient dungeon to run if you want to progress your character or gain wealth. You can run other dungeons, but it would be more efficient to have ran halls instead.
Only one “meta” option for endgame leads to massive burnout.

The people who don’t care about meta and run whatever they want to because the challenge is fun exist, but coincidentally as I mentioned above I don’t think those people are going to be sticking around if there’s no point in completing challenges if everything challenging you do can be so easily achieved by someone who literally cannot die because their hacks save them.

#78

everything you said about autonexus is correct(and frankly i wish it would not exist) and how it inflates the economy. But you ignored the fact that like the video stated, the majority of people using alternate clients do it for lag reduction. why do you think that the most popular rwt site now has a client only for lag reduction and qol

#79

do we need that meme with the fast food drink thing dropping out of the cup again

#80

Nah, though maybe it’s true that the majority of people using alternate clients use the excuse of lag reduction to cheat.

Because if they were using it only for lag reduction they wouldn’t also be autoaiming/autonexusing/etc. in such an obvious way that other players call “cheater” at them. My understanding is hacked clients allow all the babymode features to be turned OFF, yet these players leave them switched on, then claim “it’s for lag”.

#81

What you are saying is probably correct and hopefully when unity comes lag would be way less.

#82

Hey, this thread became relevant again!

As most of you already know, there was a recent update which ended up addressing some of the concerns I voiced in the original post of this thread. If you aren’t familiar with the update, or just want a quick recap of the LH-specific changes, I have included a brief summary here:

Summary of LH-specific changes in the recent update

-WC tops (T12 weapons, T13 armors and T6 abilities) have been removed from LH drop tables
-T6 rings have been removed from the Void Entity and MBC drop tables (they still drop from Malus)
-Guaranteed pot drops for all LH bosses have been removed
-Drop rates for T13 weapons and T14 armors have been boosted (by a factor of 2-3)
-T13 weapons and T14 armors (as well as non-HP and MP T6 rings) have been buffed
-All LH UT armors have been buffed
-All LH white bags have had their drop rates boosted
-A hard player cap of 65 has been added

So, what do people think of the changes? I like the look of them, though I have yet to actually run a LH since the changes were put in place. I hope that these changes are successful in reducing player dependence on LH for absolutely everything, and that we see players starting to run dungeons like Tomb and OT more often to get mana and life, while LH is run primarily by those who hope to get the UTs and LH tops, which have been buffed.

I also hope to see more failed LH runs. That might sound like a weird thing to wish for, but LH has essentially been reduced to a loot farm for a lot of players, with fewer deaths than would be expected of the most difficult dungeon in the game. In addition, more deaths from LH would result in more players needing to rebuild more frequently, stimulating the in-game economy and forcing them to run some of the other dungeons (though this will initially be mediated by the huge stores of pots that many players have as a result to previous drop rates from LH).

Thoughts?

Balance Changes & Dungeon Cap Update [X.32.7.0]
#83

Initial thoughts are fuck getting pbags from these bosses, just give them greater atk/def potions respectively while nerfing mana/life drops. I’ll have more over toiling over the ideas but this is a must

#84

Cranky cause fame isn’t worth enough to you, aren’t you? ;)

#85

Going to enjoy spending 20 minutes per dungeon for a pbag. Sure I never picked up the pots, but nothing but a mark is simply insulting.