ok that’s something I can’t agree with. First of all, bosses such as oryx 1, ocean trench, and tomb of the ancients all had invulnerable phases, with oryx 1 being well known in the community for having too many invulnerability phases and taking a bit too long. Second, this is my opinion, but I’d much rather bosses that require you to dodge and practice patterns then let players steamroll over bosses that are meant to be a challenge. I’m going to use mbc as an example, as its probably the biggest offender of this: with mbc the entire boss fight is filled to the brim with shots, and in my opinion, the survival phases where mbc cannot be attacked is a good way incentivize players to actually dodge shots, because think about it, if you could attack the boss during that phase, people would try to just find a way to skip the phase like with the forgotten king, or the twilight archmage. Point is, invulnerability can be necessary in order to promote dodging shots, rather than steamrolling through dungeons. Do I think they should make invulnerability phases shorter? yes, but do I believe we should remove them entirely? no
I’m wholeheartedly with you here, especially on the idea that bosses shouldn’t be steamrolled, but again there’s an important distinction to make. Bosses that have invulnerability are fine so long as they have an important role in the fight. I would argue that o1’s invulnerability phases weren’t a significant contribution to the length of the fight simply because of the difference in playstyle. Dps was lower, there were no pets, and so the fight would take nearly as long back in 2011-2012 if the invulnerability phases had been removed. If invulnerability is added purely for the sake of slowing down the fight (think Theatre or even some of the newer additions too like fungal and crystal), there’s no reason to keep it. I also don’t know how I feel about invulnerability until a minion is killed - usually that part of the fight is time consuming without being challenging.
The best case that I can think of right now of what you’re suggesting is the end of the Dammah fight. I think that whole fight in general tackles this issue by forcing players to dodge while also requiring them to go in to deal damage.
Also, The Forgotten King is one of the exceptions where phase skips completely change the nature of the boss fight, which was unintentional from its design.
(I also completely forgot two very good examples of what I was talking about earlier: o2 and Thessal. Both of them used to be challenging not because they had distinct phases, but because of health and the balance between going deep and staying back to heal. Invuln and new phases were added to these fights to make sure they weren’t steamrolled, but in these cases it feels like a cheap supplement designed to waste time rather than an actual productive change, but then again that’s my opinion)
This example in particular is the one I feel most mixed about. I personally LOVE the reworked dungeons. And it includes DDocks, and I usually will do my best to complete it, especially if I’m soloing. But I can see why people don’t like completing it.
Take where it used to drop: Crystal Prisoner, one of the few enemies that nearly guarantees a bunch of people will be around to see the dungeon, thanks to the prerequisite of needing to break the crystal. Inside, you got a bunch of people camping out for one of the few rushers to call troom or boss. If you’re rushing, you’re employing the exact same strategy in every single room: Outrun the enemy, kite them the same way because they have the same pattern of attack, kill them, and repeat until you reach one of those two locations. The boss door needs DPS, but aside from that, at least 90% of those people won’t see the full path from the spawn to the boss room, or the path from spawn to the troom. Then after going through the DPS gate, they fight a rather plain boss that does hit hard, but ultimately isn’t all that interactive, thanks to the numerous people present absolutely STREAMROLLING it.
All that to say, it was low effort AND low risk 99% of the time, but potentially decent rewards of good pots (including life IIRC), and a couple of pretty neat UT’s.
Now, we have a much more interesting dungeon. Calamity Crab, the cannons autofiring, the different variety of enemies. There was that AR puzzle piece with the stowaway. The boss has more phases, and they’re certainly more interesting to try and dodge. I think the only less interesting room is the treasure room where you have to clear to get the treasure, instead of walking what felt like a tightrope. I feel like if they made that more interactive by adding cannons, it would be SUPER cool to see that old concept combined with something new. But that’s just me, because I have trash taste.
But, rushing is far more of a chore and FAR more dangerous. It isn’t worth it, unless you’re a really cautious rogue (which still can get dicey if you get silenced), And the last thing you want is to run into the crab. So clearing becomes the better option. You finally reach boss, and you have like a minimum of 4 or 5 phases (I believe) to go through, assuming you get that pure DPS. But you still gotta dodge and aim. You can’t stand still on the bottom left corner and assume you’ll be fine, or you’ll get destroyed by coins and scimitars before the first phase even ends.
DDocks takes longer, and takes more mental capacity, compared to the previous iteration. BUT, the rewards at the end of the tunnel are simultaneously much less and way too much. This dungeon, soloed and cleared, drops a minimum of SEVEN pots, four of which are Greater Pots. That’s a LOT of reward. But it’s also specifically Life pots (which are not that crazy worthwhile nowadays, but you also usually only get one per run, but hey, it’s probably the fastest way for mid-tier players to get maxed life), and a combination of Speed and Dexterity pots, the latter drops from the other reworked dungeon, the Sprite World (which is excellent IMO), and the former drops from Godlands stuff AND an easy as heck dungeon in the Snake Pit. All that’s left are UTs and STs, most of which are items that were once available to get in a once-lower effort dungeon, where the people doing them were numerous and the risk was resultingly low.
I think if this was a brand new dungeon, or if there were maybe two or three drops that were worth something, this dungeon would be ran more. Or who knows, maybe people will do the typical thing I’ve been seeing, where they kill the crab, and then immediately leave.
Thus ends my thesis on DDocks. :]
One of the old arguments against releasing the SB intend from bondage was the ease of duping, and strengthening the “black market.” What solutions exist to combat that separate issue are a different matter. I agree otherwise. I miss the trading days…
(I believe that has more to do with it both being more common, and no longer has low risk for potential high reward. There was only one DDocks per realm, and the only shot at the rare loot.)
As for the rest of the point, it sounds like DECA is seriously considering doing something similar to this. I’m very mixed with this, but I reserve my judgement for after the testing proposal and possible release. I’m a little nervous about that direction, admittedly.
I agree with Josh’s response [to this entire paragraph] a certain degree, but pets have made all the difference for the execution of the game. We’re still feeling the ripples of counters to a broken system, partly successful and failed. The nature of the original fights was because of inexperience (or laziness) of former teams, but it takes a lot of time to make anything new or fix the old.
Slightips covered some of this in their post, unbeknownst to me at the time of writing:
I believe the fighting styles and exposure of items and remarkable teamwork from the playerbase are what drove such high invulnerability phases at times. On one hand, I don’t like “Organized Discords” much, but they are certainly a way to play the game. On the other hand, there’s completely public runs, and we have, up to this point, a pretty lazy casual playerbase. Between sitting around for keys, and, more so in any dungeon, you have a few players pulling the weight for most, usually in the form of rushing, and if it takes too long, wholeheartedly would rather leave than help. I feel that pain…
How then are the devs supposed to create the game to both make it relevant for their most dedicated players, and deem it a possible pursuit for those who don’t have the time and/or will to offer up and have a chance at being even slightly in par with the elites?
Let’s be honest. The game is very unique, and holds some nostalgic value for a number of us, dare I say that. It was, however, a broken system overall since the beginning, and I find it both remarkable and fascinating that it has managed to stretch out this long, but every action creates ripples in this Jenga tower of a game design. What “brick” that could make the tower topple isn’t always easily (nay, or even possibly) predicted.
There’s far too much to say in one post and in a consolidated thought process…
Edit: Sorry, there’s been some conversation during when I was typing. I will edit my post where necessary
The reason I chose DDocks as the example is precisely what you said. The rework of the dungeon is amazing, albeit sometimes a little bit of a stretch from the more traditional theme of a pirate dungeon. The art is fantastic, especially the attention to detail in the boss room, the easter eggs, and even the homage to the previous version with the dps wall entities being scattered around in the water. That is exactly why it is so disappointing to see crabs throughout the realm and many ddocks portals, but whenever I enter them everyone nexuses immediately or just does t and leaves.
The design is certainly a large component of why I think players choose other dungeons over ddocks, partly because I think they missed the mark with the dungeon’s difficulty and its rewards, but also because the dungeon lacks replayability. It is fair to criticize the older version as a dungeon that anyone with a reasonably sized group could steamroll, but it was still worth running and wasn’t a hassle because of it. At least for me, much of the novelty wore off, especially when most of the time the group I join with rarely ever leaves the starting ship.
There’s also a very interesting juxtaposition between Kabam and DECA design philosophy that’s apparent in the difference between these two dungeons. Removing any nostalgia I have about the older dungeons, I can say that objectively I should be more interested and engaged with the newer dungeons in theory, but after doing these dungeons several times, it just doesn’t feel worth the effort. (Maybe that’s just me and I should be happier with DECA’s direction)
with everyone having amazing pets, max mana is not very useful compared to hp and atk, hence why pyra is white bag while expo is cyan
(This post was also made in 2018, just so you’re aware. Also, Wimk hasn’t been seen on the forums for almost a year now)
Also, no, not nearly everyone has amazing pets. There’s quite a lot of the less prominent/lower leveled playerbase that isn’t well equipped, that, and pets have been side-graded since that date of posting, to boot!
Now, the Max MP vs. other stats is an opinion that can’t be solidly disputed, because it’s based purely on having different preferences and playstyles. I won’t argue with that side of things.
The drop rate for event whites is unacceptably low. Locking powerful items like Ogmur behind such a stupid wall that requires no skill but lots of luck is dumb.
They had the issue with it on release of it being spamable into itself. Even with diminishing returns on stat boosts, they don’t want you to be able to chain it together and essentially gain momentum while using it. I think they overcompensated a little bit (and that this kind of thing could be a cool), but I get it.
Here’s an easy solution: just remove the fucking calamity crab.
I don’t know which brainrotten crackhead at DECA though it’s an appropriate enemy to add in a low-mid tier dungeon. He deals more damage than spooky boi, has a worse shot pattern than spooky boi, chases more tenaciously than spooky boi, is faster than spooky boi, can’t be easly stuck on a wall like spooky boi, takes longer to kill than spooky boi takes to despawn aND HIS FUCKING SHOTS CAN STACK. In it’s current state i wouldn’t bother with ddocks even if it dropped guaranteed fucking glife.
Let’s test its strength.
Say they reduced it to 100 MP. Stacking it to max alone would cost 300 MP, but let’s consider the returns:
On a 75 WIS Pally, the first use of the seal will last 7.5 seconds, the second use would be 9 seconds, the third would be 11.5 seconds, totaling a net cost of 269.5 MP, discounted over a course of 12 seconds.
For the first 0.5 seconds, you have +15 WIS (+0.9 MP regained);
the next 0.5 seconds, you have +22 WIS (+1.32 MP);
the next 6.5 seconds you have +25 WIS (+19.5 MP);
the next 2 seconds, you have +22 WIS again (+5.28 MP);
and for the last 2.5 seconds, you have +15 WIS again (+4.5 MP),
Next would be to calculate the effects of WisMod on various abilities within that 6.5-second window:
Assuming the characters are just below the threshold for WisMod (which are very low for some classes)
Durations and Ranges
Most abilities with duration will last 2.5 seconds longer. +50% duration for 5-second long abilities. This affects tiered Tomes, Orbs, and Seals. Helms last 4.5 seconds, but close enough.
Relevant UT/STs with +2.5 sec durations are: Soul of the Bearer, Helm of the Juggernaut, Tome of Holy Protection, Book of Geb, Sandstone Seal, and Seal of Cubic Conundra.
Oreo lasts 0.5 seconds longer.
Most abilities with range will have an extra +2.5 tiles of range. This includes all tiered Tomes, Orbs, Seals, and Helms.
Relevant UT/STs with +2.5 tile range are: Tome of Pain, Seal of Cubic Conundra, Enchantment Orb, and Orb of Sweet Demise.
Skulls gain +1 tile healing range but do not gain a wider damage radius.
Scepter of Fulmination gains 4 more targets, +80%. You can reach a whopping 10 targets on a maxed Sorc.
T6 Scepters, Cnidaria Rod, gain 2 more targets, +40%.
Scepter of Devastation gains 1 more target, double! The same goes for the Grotesque Scepter, missing 2 WIS for an extra target.
Heal, HP, and Damage
T6 Tomes heal 75 more HP, +47% to base;
T6 Seals add 50 extra Max HP, +71% to base;
T6 Scepters deal 200 extra damage on their first hit, +66% to base;
Scepter of Devastation deals 250 extra damage, +30% to base;
Cnidaria Rod deals 125 extra damage, +83% base damage to the first target;
Grotesque Scepter deals 150 extra damage, +16% to base;
T6 Skulls will gain +100 damage, +56% to base;
Tome of Pain deals 175 extra damage, +35% to base;
Note about the WisMod Formulas
I’m using the WisMod formulas provided on each item’s page in the wiki. Some values I’m getting from the individual pages don’t seem to correspond with their descriptions in the ability pages.
Tomes for example:
This formula results in 235 HP yet in the Tomes page this appears
I believe the general ability pages are merely outdated.
WisMod classes tend to have +10 to +25 WIS above the threshold at max anyway, so percentage values may matter less than the raw boosts.
To me, a cost of 269.5 MP for a +25 WIS buff that lasts about 6.5 seconds still seems rather high, considering spamming the ability all three times requires you to really wait things out if you have an MP boosting ring or to have a very good pet to even perform.
Of course, to make things a lot simpler, DECA could simply give the item a buff to its Wisdom boost to +20 or +25 and introduce a cooldown, as you suggested. Even then, I’d still lower the cost to about 120 MP. That way, you can still use another Seal once.
Lemme add a few cents to this argument.
I made a post a year ago in ‘Some design lessons from realm’
where i compared the design philosophy of the 3 different developers over the years.
Old bosses like the tomb trio had extended fights due to a combination of static HP bars, low regen for the players, invulnerable phases and more than liberal use of quiet and weaken shots throughout the entire fight, along with boss HP healing being present (tomb trio, O1, stone guards).
after pets where introduced the old bosses of the Wildshadow era became absolute jokes, as none of them where made with perma-stunning or ridiculous HP/MP regen in mind. Kabam noticed this and promptly made most of their later bosses stun-immune to prevent complete steam rolling and as such most of their bosses relied on extreme damage and invulnerability phases to extend the fights.
Early on, Deca relied on those same tactics. but was quick to implement some sort of player-measuring system. as per example we have the MBC 1.0 who had HP Regen based on the amount of people present.
unlike kabam Deca wasn’t also shy of spamming weak/quiet. unfortunately pre-nerf puri existed back then which, along with the Mseal. compromising such designs.
It wasn’t until the Vital combat update that the super-tanky immortal deathball meta was addressed and promptly dismantled. in its place rose the DPS meta, since HP scaling stopped being linear and became quadratic instead. so the mentality of [group tank and heal to win] became [DPS until next HP threshold]
most invulnerable phases are a result of 1: a mechanic, like towers in O3 and coin / cores in MBC, 2: a ‘cutscene’ / major phase change, 3: a safety net to prevent the fights phases being skipped (some bosses also heal up back to the threshold to prevent instakills)
i will be honest in saying that i dislike ‘cutscenes’ and HP threshold time-wastes, they are however a necessary evil to ensure fight play out in a predictable and stable way. a good example where this doens’t happen (and quickly can go wrong) is the forgotten king.
personally i would like to see some love toward the older dungeons (something they are actively working on) and a fixing of realm’s (general) economy. this last one is especially difficult due to guaranteed drops from certain locations (looking at you, Osanc.) which are again, a nessecary evil due to the scarcity of the dungeon and as an incentive to actually run it. (as far as i know, void suffers from this in the opposite, being mostly run for the exaltations instead of the loot.)
honestly, i really like the crab. Sure, its threatening and if not careful can stack up and trample you. However, he is very vulnerable to proper circling, once you find a good couple rooms open he can be looped pretty easily. Also spooky is slower but also is relentless (constantly teleports and chases until despawn, crab will lose aggresion if everyone gets out of its aggro), and crab can certainly be killed well before spooky despawns. crab is really just threatening at first, but once you figure out how to lure him and realize moving straight forwards from him is almost never a good idea except in his attack changes, he gets to be well managable and worth the effort.
Crab > Spooky all day long.
Crab can be physically killed, and spawns only once. this means you can ‘just get rid of him’ by cheesing him in one of the many ways that exist (all of them a 100x more safer than circling him.) he even drops loot as a reward for dealing with him. and has (admittedly exploitable) fail safes so he cant just run into the boss room.
Spooky, on the other hand kinda sucks. like you said once encountered he WILL be someone’s (read: yours) problem for the next 45 or so seconds. where the most you can do is get him stuck on a wall or perma-decoy him. and in case you cant do these things your kinda boned. (lets also not forget spooky 1.0 who would straight up sit on you)
All-in-all fighting the crab feels infinitely better than waiting out a truly invincible and unstoppable spooky Boi. if only for the satisfaction that you have dealt with him and that he wont show up again.
Do any of you remember the original idea for Spooky Boi? I seem to recall reading in the idea for the Lost halls years before it’s release that after a certain time limit, the player spawn room would seal up and fill with lava (to prevent leeching, even from pausing techniques… you know, back when that was a thing lol), then you ran around this “maze” with hallways that were more narrow, and Spooky was supposed to be this permanent feature acting as a sort of singular “PAC-Ghost” entity, forcing crowds of players in a certain direction if they were unfortunate enough to cross paths.
There was another well thought out dungeon with a similar concept to LH that I read at about the same time, so I may be confusing the two. I’m positive this was it, though
Yeah i remember that version of spooky boi. you can still find in in the original design documents
The idea was to have the spectral sentry on a invisible set of ‘rails’ which he would constantly patrol.
This version of the LH also had a 25 player limit, the aforementioned anti-leech mechanics, respawning enemies and a ‘blind’ map (the map didn’t show anything) and all the hallways are narrower as well.
The Agonized titan acted as a regular Troom boss by dropping the entire LH loot pool and void was only accessible like 5% of the time.
Hah, the calamity crab must have been developed off of that idea then
He actually is.
trough observing the crab I’ve managed to figure out how his ‘patrol’ function works.
- All rooms have invisible ‘nodes’ that tell the crab how he should move / where he should move to.
- once it reaches a ‘node’ it will randomly choose a nearby ‘node’ which he will then travel to.
- If he is aggro’d he will ignore nodes until all player are outside his detection range for a certain amount of time, once he no longer chases anyone he will attempt to locate the nearest ‘node’ and resume patrolling.
- In the off-chance that he does not find a ‘node’ in his vicinity (this can happen in certain cases, like dragging him between the rocks and Bilgewater’s ship) he will instead keep circling on the spot until a player approaches him and aggro’s him. this behaviour will repeat unless he finds a movement ‘node’.
All in all this gives the crab probably one of the most sophisticated movement programming in the game.
This version of the LH also had a 25 player limit
Reminds me of those old 140+ person LH runs…I completely understand why they lowered the portal cap so severely and changed it to entering rather than loading in, but damn if I don’t miss feeling like I was truly raiding the dungeon with more than a hundred other players.
MASSIVE lag spike intensifies.