PT: Classes balancing part 1, Gigantic Cave(Fungal Forest + Crystal Cave), LoD, LoS


#102

Lots of stuff to unpack here but I’m going to focus on the class balancing that Deca is attempting.

I believe that this needs to be addressed a little differently, there is a massive difference between a boost that only affects the user vs a boost that affects everyone so my first suggestion is to make that distinction in the boosts by making it so that self-boosts retain the *1.5 modifier. This would wind up nerfing the mob entirely but helping classes that have their own way of boosting themselves (Mystic, Necromancer, etc.). For the record, the *1.5 on self boost should NOT apply to Warrior and Paladin, they should get *1.2 like everyone else they buff (more on Paladin later). Working with the change above, I also think it would be beneficial to expand the number of classes that have access to these boosts. One of the main reasons why pally/warr are so in demand is because a lot of classes don’t have a reliable way to boost their DPS. You could buff some of the weaker/rarer UT items on some classes by giving them such buffs. Some examples are:

Ronin’s Wakizashi
Trap of the Vile Spirit
Ghostly Prism
Bottled Meduzosoan/Plague Poison
Scepter of Devastation
Quiver of the Shadows
Kageboshi
Cloak of Bloody Surprises (revert back to its original state)

You could even expand upon this by making it so all tiered abilities have a buff/stat boost for the user. Classes like Rogue, Ninja, Archer, and Mystic already have buffs (stats, speedy, berserk); however, Sorcerer, Assassin, Wizard, Trickster, and Samurai do not. Aside from Wizard, who is powerful in its own right, the other 4 classes are not exactly powerhouses on their own and are rarely seen in large numbers in dungeons with 20+ people. Here are some propositions for the 5 classes I mentioned with no ability buffs:
Prism - Armored (when used) and/or +ATT
Poison - Damaging (when used) and/or +ATT
Spell - +MP
Scepter - +MP and/or +WIS
Wakizashi - +DEX and/or +SPD

Good change. Melee classes tank less and this game embraces its bullet-hell side a little more. Remember when the objective of bullet hells were for you to dodge the bullets not eat them?

This on top of nerfing damaging is a bit too strong a nerf for Paladin. I’d suggest either retaining the *1.5 for Paladin and make *1.2 the party effect or keeping the seal heal, but doing both might actually kill Paladin. I suggest that to make up for Paladin’s nerf, maybe give the tiered seals a passive buff like +HP or +DEF (I mean the other two sword classes do so why not pally?).

Overall I think this is a good change, some bosses were way too easy to steamroll because of this; however, I have one complaint: some UTs are so badly hurt by this that they may become totally useless, which shouldn’t happen considering their rarity (obviously I’m referring to higher end UTs nobody cares if the Snakeskin shield is still useless). I believe that either some or all UTs should have a reduced immunity duration, either *1.5 or *2. Just to give you an idea, here are some UTs that are nerfed hard by this change that make them far less useful than they were originally intended to be:

Spiteful Scutum
Honeytomb Snare
Quiver of Shrieking Specters
Wakizashi of Eastern Winds

This overall is a good step in the right direction, but I would like to propose something more: class-dependent debuff immunities. This would significantly increase the viability of weaker classes in certain scenarios, which honestly is a win win in my book if implemented correctly. There are plenty of interesting combinations that could overall increase the usage and strength of a class. For example, you could make Samurai immune to unstable, Mystic immune to weak, and Assassin immune to sick.

Sorcerer can finally flex on the other classes.

Long story short if you want to truly balance the classes you’re going to have to give them more tools in their kit to use, and the easiest way to do that is by diversifying and strengthening their abilities.


#103


A section of Hoffster/Mothrship’s comments from his most recent video.

Sums up what I’m feeling about this update.


#104

can you explain why tho


#105

I dont really see anyone talking about how these nerfs will affect solo play, believe it not some players are not running lost halls all day

I also see a lot of people bringing up lost halls and invincible swarms of players

Maybe lost halls isn’t perfect and needs to change a bit and not just classes?

From what I see you could reduce all damage of classes by 50% and they would still trash lost halls

I’m disappointed to not see events getting a change

Cube gods, skull shines, rock dragons, herm all get utterly trashed in groups

Herm is basically just a sponge that you shoot to open OT

Events used to actually be a fun challenge when I first started playing

and these nerfs are in no way going to stop that, groups are still going to smash what they smashed before unless that particular dungeon or event is changed


#106

The entire update is every single class getting a nerf. If damaging and berserk are getting nerfed, all classes will get fucked over by that.
Edit: Something said by literally everyone


#107

Except most classes don’t have access to either of those buffs? or have access to maybe one of those buffs on one super rare UT or ST that is not core to make the class function?

If literally everyone is fucking stupid, then they’re fucking stupid. Not the first time that happened in this game.


#108

b-BuT nErFs To WaRrIoR aNd PaLaDiN

In all seriousness, that’s what I tried to say, but noooooo. Apparently that’s not a good point.


#109

Testers have decided once and for all that “endgame dungeon”=“close the door and fill the room with projectiles”. They’re not going to deviate from that single design choice, ever.


#110

That only solidifies that it’s an issue.


#111

All of these changes are overall game changing. But not necessarily in a good way. I think that nerfing some of the main aspects for those classes makes them undesirable and slows down game play. The new dungeons are great and I am not sure how the new immunity to crowd control mechanics are going to affect the game but I definitely think that it will need a solid amount of reworking before being put into the game. I am and have always been a huge fan of vitMod, but seeing it put in the game as effecting status effect duration makes me, and a lot of other people, pretty disappointed. I hope that there will be more reworks and Deca decides to take some advice from the community on this one, because this update could be a make or break it for this game to me.


#112

Not for the rest of the community apparently. Nobody cares that new bosses are just more variations of “make the blandest dungeon possible and focus all the effort on intricate shot patterns”. Nobody cares that boss fights are all “let players in then either make walls appear behind them or fill the path with lava”.

Apparently nerfing melees is the ultimate evil and nothing else can even compare.


#113

Just saying the overall community response on the nerf of 2 of the most important classes for running halls, shatters, etc. is extreme disappointment. I don’t think that “everyone is fucking stupid” for feeling that way whether it’s happened before or not.


#114

And you don’t think it’s a problem to have 2 classes being considered the only ones worth playing? in a game that has a total of 15 different playable classes? That doesn’t look like a balancing issue to you?

Having at least partial vulnerability to debuffs on major bosses while player buffs are less powerful could shift the meta towards more varied group composition and playstyles, instead of just “group everyone together, permabuff them and then just sit there shooting until everything is dead”.


#115

2 classes the only ones worth playing

Rogue, Trickster, Priest, Wizard, and Archer are all playable, Maybe you should get your head out of your fame training ass and actually play the game instead of constantly running LHs.


#116

Same could be said about just… nerfing the stats of the classes that give said buffs.


#117

Find another place to vent your rage then come back and actually read my posts before replying. That should help.

How would you go about it?


#118

How can people not see how terribly op the stacked buffs are?

I’m already worried that Deca will chicken out from this because off all the people fearing of the game actually being a bit challenging again


#119

Every class will get affected because the nerf to damaging and berserk applies to everyone.


#120

No it doesn’t.

Most classes can’t use these buffs.

Most Warriors and Pallies try their best to self-buff anyway.

The actual difference in gameplay is going to be a lot less noticeable than you’re claiming it’s going to be.


#121

Swords

Already getting a damage nerf. Don’t need to touch on this part.

Abilities

Warrior: Obviously, the class is really strong when it comes to the ability. However, changing Berserk isn’t exactly going to make that less true; instead, focus on lowering the duration that is given, as well as something listed lower.

At the same time, gaining so much Defense from Helms is… odd. I can understand shields, but helms? They protect your head and nothing else. I’d maybe split it in half for all helms.

Paladin: The only issue for Paladin is that the effects can get really long, so lowering the duration a bit is the best course of action. Removing the heal from HP Boosts is kind of eh, and would be better to simply not have it heal if you have Sick, like I stated in my post some light years up. This could also use an idea listed below.

Knight: Removing chain stuns is easily the best way to go, and even though that’s what’s being done, the way it’s being done is very wrong. I listed it in that same post mentioned above, but essentially, have it on a set timer rather than a multiplicative timer, so that it makes shields not super easy to use, but doesn’t completely ruin Scutum or UTs in the future that could have Stun.

The only thing I’ll say is that all shields should, in my opinion, get a damage nerf. Their damage, plus their status effect, is absolutely ridiculous, and it’s hard to see why hitting someone with your shield would cause so much damage. For Shield of Ogmur, it might make a bit more sense, as it Armor Breaks, but… for regular shields, I just don’t see it. Shield of Ogmur probably needs a bit of a price increase, though, considering how absurdly versatile it is.

Class Stats

Warrior: 75 Attack is a lot, to say the least. There’s no way around changing this, even if it’ll have backlash; at least, with changing Attack, it won’t be something extremely detrimental to everyone, just the class itself. Maybe, say, 65 or 60.

At the same time, however, you can add more Speed, to around 60, so that it has a synergy with Speedy, its second Status Effect. After all, Warrior is meant to be the one rushing into battle, so it would make sense that he’s the fastest, no?

Finally… I’m not so sure about 75 Vitality. I mean, it makes sense for Knight for sure, since he’s meant to be a tank, and it makes sense for Paladin to have 40 since he comes with Healing. But what reason does Warrior have it? To put a long story short, maybe reducing his Vitality to 60 would be more fair in the long run, what with the TOTALLY useful Vitality Modifier being added.

Paladin: Paladin’s stats are fairly reasonable, in my opinion. However, I will say that the stats actually need a little bit of a buff if anything, considering that, for whatever reason, Paladin has the lowest Dexterity. Like… why? What was Kabam thinking?

Adding back that 5 Dexterity while removing 5 Speed would put Paladin back on a rather even playing field, while keeping his 30 Defense would still allow him to not be squishy compared to the others. With a nerf to Helm defense, the two would actually line up fairly well.

Hell, you could even go ahead and do something different by giving him 60 Dexterity or something. This is, of course, not the best idea all things considered, but is a possibility regardless.

Knight: Knight is rather fine as is in terms of stats. He’s meant to be a tank, so it makes sense to have really high Defense and Vitality. And, I’d say “hey, let’s nerf his speed since he’s so heavy”, but… we don’t need another Paladin situation. Necromancer’s Vitality is more than enough.

Having no buff does make Knight at a disadvantage damage-wise regardless of the situation, though. Sure, he can do direct damage, but he doesn’t get damage added to his main weapon, which can result in a lot less DPS in the long run, as 1.5x either damage output or shot output is a major difference, to say the least. This contrast puts him on a level playing field, in my opinion.

But what about Damaging and Berserk?

These two, along with a lot of other positive buffs - much like Healing or Armored, for instance - could use a sort of timer to balance them out, rather than just nerfing them into the ground. The idea that I had in mind was to have a timer before you can get the status effect again, being placed at around 2 Seconds.

This could easily make things not only a lot more coordination-based, but also make it so that there’s still moments where you’re not buffed, and therefor not guaranteed to be safe. And, yes, while there’s an opportunity to be a sneaky little troll in there with Tier 0s, the same can be said about activating a boss’s Stun Immunity by doing it at a very inopportune time. It’s a sacrifice that would have to be made, because the benefits will usually outweigh the costs.


All these are just what I could think of off the top of my head, though.