PT: Vital Combat & Exaltations

#517

I’ve always admired one thing in particular about the design of Realm of the Mad God, especially in its earlier patches, and that’s the lack of grinding present for an MMO. You can reach max level in 20-30 minutes for instance, rather than the hundreds of hours needed in Classic MMO’s. (As an aside, you can view pets as a replacement for that classic leveling system, but just about everyone realizes at this point that pets are a problem and the new Vital Combat System does address it)

Many people use the term “grind” liberally when talking about this game, but I believe that they aren’t using the term correctly.

You see, a grind is an activity you do, but don’t enjoy, in order to achieve something you want. And many Realmers conflate a game being a grind with having a quick gameplay cycle.

Just because you’re consistently filling up your inventory, consistently clearing realms, or consistently maxing a new character, does NOT mean you aren’t enjoying the task at hand. Yes, it’s possible to not enjoy one of these things at any given time, and do them anyways (Candland comes to mind as a very grindy experience), but the lack of enjoyment is far from inherent. Compare this to an MMO with a simple combat system that isn’t designed well enough to be interesting after 1000 hours of leveling up.

What I’m getting at is that although I can tell a lot of care and problem-solving went into the Exaltation system, including it would introduce a major grind factor to the game. By attempting to fix pets and adding in Exaltations, it’s one step forward and two steps back to making the game more enjoyable.

This is because grinding as I have described it about is inherently unfun, and the Exaltation System is the Ultimate in grinding. Not only do I very much NOT want to do 400 dungeons perfectly in a row per class (Or whatever larger amount it would be if I failed a few times) but I very much do want those stat bonuses the system grants. Because increasing the upper limit of stats is worth an incredible amount.

I’m going to avoid going full math mode here, but feel free to ask me to show my work in detail and I will in a later post. But basically, if you plot max HP increase by the market value of HP-increasing rings, you can find that a +25 max HP gain on a character with maxed HP is worth 38 life pots. If I do 50 Sanctuaries with a class, then any character I max life in of that class gets 38 life pots of value. Forever.

Maybe this is already known, and it is seen as an appropriate reward for a grueling task. Even if it is a proper reward, it introduces a lot of grinding I can’t justify not doing if I want to be in the top bracket of the player base. And I really think when people say they are quitting because of the Exaltation System, this is what they are trying to voice. That it isn’t fair to suddenly make the game they enjoy into a game that requires their lack of enjoyment to progress.

#518

I get your point, but that’s not what a grind is. Grinding, into terms of a video game, is doing the same thing over and over to achieve a higher level or find specific items and whatnot. One can totally enjoy the grind and it’s not inherently defined by being unfun.

#519

Yup happens to the best of us :slight_smile:

#520

I would simply call your definition of grinding “Playing the game.” I see a grind in a video game as bad game design, because it’s a tedious and usually mindless activity required by the game. You’re right that doing the same task over and over can be enjoyable, and so I think it’s a mistake to call it a grind.

But definitions aside, you do see my point. No one wants to repeatedly attempt 400 dungeons times 16 classes, and so locking permanent max stat increases, which I’ve demonstrated are worth a lot to players, is not fair.

#521

You are trying to define grind for all players by your own terms and experience. As Nameless said, a grind, in terms of a video game,(not your terms) is doing the same thing over and over for your own reasons that may or may not benefit you. A grind is not a bad game design, a bad game design is the situation of a power creep in realm, so the expectation to achieve the best items is there guarded with a harsher grind, but that doesn’t mean you cant play this game on your own terms and do just as well as someone with better items. Nonetheless, grinding forever in this game can be taken into the players hand as there are different dungeons to diversify that experience of a mindless grind; and enhance the enjoyment or experience of the grind. You may not enjoy grinding these dungeons as the way they are with the goal of just getting every single item from the dungeon, but many do. A goal for many players of this game is to grind all the items in the game, whether it is enjoyable or not, it is a goal. Just as doing the absurd amount of dungeons across 16 classes for permanent rewards, is a goal. A grind and something to work towards to for those who want it, so they get these permanent stats and other buffs. You understand that these rewards are worth a lot to players, and so they should be worked for, especially if they are permanent buffs. I find your thinking extremely faulty, how do you justify that locking good rewards (that is worth a lot to players because it is permanent) is unfair because it requires the player to return high risk and time in return? Why should these rewards be so easy to achieve? However, I agree that the requirements are high as they are at the moment and according to someones math it would require 4 years to achieve the maximum rewards across all classes, but as the intention of this system, it is a long term goal to not be achieved within just a few weeks or months across all your characters. I do hope they can change the requirements and lessen the punishment of a setback when dying, but dont try to take away the enjoyment that this new system will bring to many players just because you feel that this sense of grinding is a punishment.

#522

I would love to see this spreadsheet with before update and after update values, do you have it? I have understand that they will lose more in quantity, but I’m saying about the feel in the game, my pet is not something that make me good enough to do a lot of things because of it, it helps a lot, but it’s not for a nerf needed, so why nerfing something that even isn’t good enough, why does not put a lvl max at 70/70? 80/80? i’m certanly that is more prifitable maxing your pet to 100 without being good enough.

#523

Ok! I just made a draft sheet right now. Its slightly different than the one shown previously ( graphs are found at the bottom of the tables, and shows hp per sec instead of vit, as vit does non-constant hp per sec now) Somebody correct me if i’ve made an error in the calculation values (or tell me if it doesnt work or if its trolling-proof and stuff plz)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aysl1TrxpqaMYNPzpyN4-1HwxGa6p75VbSV2Hep-Zdc/edit#gid=0

#524

I find it very unfortunate that being 8/8 is required to avail exaltation since I generally do dungeons at random without really caring how maxed I am. It’d suck to manage to do, for example, a small Fungal on a 0/8 but not get any benefits from it because you didn’t max a stat, even though running the dungeon on 0/8 is significantly more difficult.

#525

you do get a benefit! loot, fame and possible whites! :wink:

But it’s not helpful. it’s a hindrance to others in the dungeon

#526

you have to approve the access

#527

Whether or not people agree with my terms and definitions is really beside the point of this discussion. Whether or not all grinds are bad, some grinds are bad, or no grinds are bad, I guess is up to interpenetration.

But I will strongly argue that the grind of Exaltations is bad design, and the main reason is because it does not respect the player’s time. Yes, someone could realistically have the goal of doing 6400 dungeons without dying once in 4 years (Or however many it would take for the many deaths you’d have in that time), but I frankly think it’s irresponsible design to even allow that goal to exist.

#528

I mean, what if you’re 4/8 or 6/8?

#529

Ok I think I’ve said everything that I can about this issue.

If the developers are determined to nerf pets and nothing will stop it, I support @isalea’s proposed changes and I would also like to see the pet progression be linear so a level 90 pet is closer to a level 100 pet in terms of power (basically buff the lower leveled pets while applying the overall heal delay nerf).

  • By default, health regeneration and mana regeneration are tripled in order to keep newer players with a weaker pet up to pace with older players with stronger pets and to make these stats much more useful
  • Pet heal and magic heal ability cooldowns are three times longer (aka they are now 3 seconds)

Ultimately a simpler system will be much more acceptable. Please consider isalea’s changes.

#530

Yeah, you get loot, fame, and possible whites, but why not Exaltation too? Unless the 8/8 rule is completely arbitrary. I’d really rather not have to go through pointless grinding for 8/8’s if I already know how to do a dungeon and do fine fine on a 4/8.

*Sure it’s a long-term goal, aimed at veteran players, but being a veteran player =/= All characters 8/8. If it’s a long-term goal, why make it so inaccessible if it will already take months if not years to complete?

*Why add more pointless grind?

#531

Cherry on top for dedicated players.

Least thats how I see it.

#532

Quite masochistic to see that as a cherry on top.

#533

You should see my back.

… I’m sorry

#534

ok mr moderator

#535

Ok i think its done now.

#536

As a divine pet owner, I completely disagree. The OoC system reinforces dodging back into the core game loop. You can still use your divine pet, so long as you don’t suck at the game.

Way to sound like a kyle rittenhouse

You’re a cunt