PT: Vital Combat & Exaltations


#505

You cannot deny that they are being manipulated when most of these discords have made announcements trying to convince their members that these updates will be detrimental to their lifestyle and ruin the “discord community” if this update goes through. Also, Its not a big deal to a lot of people because the majority of the community is based around the whole discording raiding lmfao.


#506

I’ve only seen a big discord with the exact opposite announcement, basically an announcement that was word for word what you were saying “all these people are brainwashed”


#507

What is the point you are trying to make? You stated that I seem like I’ve just been echoing a statement that has been told to me by some discord and those who disagree with me are sheep. That is different from the statement I made which is that people are being manipulated by the discords they are in to think that this update is a bad thing and will affect their gameplay heavily. I see this as brainwashing because of course these discords want to try and sway their members to be against this update because it would ruin the efficiency of their raiding and would deter many players from joining their big groups when they could and should play in smaller groups or with their guilds The whole discord raiding thing isn’t a big deal as it may seem, but it is definitely not something that should be supported. I think these players should make up their own decision after taking many things into account and experiencing testing for themself, without having any sort of biased opinions from the discord servers they have nested in for so long


#508

My point is everyone has their own opinion on this. Just because people think it is bad does not mean they read any announcement in any discord channel about this. I’d also encourage anyone hosting discord channels to not make persuasive announcements about these in-game updates or otherwise, let people discuss and make their own opinions.

I think a lot of players jumped onto the forums and posted for the first time, just after reading the developer announcement, without any background interference to their thoughts.


#509

I’m new at this game, and I feel that they will nerf my rare pet more than they nerf the divines pets…
cause my pet does not give me the fantasy to stay in front of any monster safely…
but I will receive the same nerf? it does not look fair.
maybe it could be a good thing to stay me away from this game


#510

Your pet will be nerfed via the in combat system.

this whole system is being put in place to encourage and demand better play while also minimizing the ridiculous gap between a rare/legend pet and a divine pet.

vit and wis are being doubled to further reduce that gap.


#511

Totally agree


#512

What ridiculous gap? It’s like 29hp per max. The system certainly hurts lower level pets more and has an insane lean toward classes that max at high vit.


#513

The gap is still the same the pet heal ability scales exponentially while they are nerfing pets linearly by adding 3 seconds to every pet rarity.


#514

Exaltations
Just don’t make it rely ONLY on dungeon completions. This benefits key pops (and hence discord runs) much more and with the current numbers will almost guarantee even more players hopping into discords to get at least the first few tiers of each exaltation stat, regardless of adaptive HP scaling & IC/OOC. Instead, add a variety of challenges or goals to provide a more interactive and enjoyable experience (e.g. complete a dungeon in x seconds, complete dungeon without taking damage, solo/duo/trio a dungeon etc).

Vital Combat
The Indicator should NOT be a small icon in the center of the UI above the fame bar. No one has the time to click on it to check how they are being affected by IC/OOC when they are encountering enemies, let alone fighting a boss. Shooting will also close the indicator tab, making it pointless. However it will be implemented, this information should be just as easily visible as your HP and MP bars, or the heroes quest display. It would also be nice to gauge how the Healing status effect actually affects the actual vit regeneration percentage shown in the indicator.

Tomes
I actually like the majority of changes. I found the Tome of Pain much more effective at crowd control and dealing damage, but wish it had a lower cooldown. Also, the Tome of Purification needs to somehow provide the Purify effect or something similar to the group, because it is otherwise subpar to the Tome of Protection in most scenarios. Maybe it could have a tiny purify radius separate from healing, or target x amount of players. The Tome of Geb has an amazing 6s speedy, but the very low heal and the very high MP cost is too punishing on the player, especially with IC already hindering wis & vit regen. The 3s cooldown forces you to care about the timing of your ability use, which feels slightly too long, but otherwise functions decently. 2s cooldown is probably better. Tome of Protection currently provides 4 vit. Why not make it provide 5 to reduce IC by 0.2s?

Max HP Increase
It’s useless when soloing, somewhat useful in a group and excels with a priest/necro. Since the Paladin can no longer provide instant HP, his survivability suffers and he usually takes damage faster than his Healing effect can regenerate health. I believe that Seals should grant a portion of instant health to its user but not the party. I also found myself enjoying Paladin less overall.

Seal of Blasphemous Prayer
The 1.6s base invulnerability (which can be boosted by wis) will enable you to very easily achieve OOC. It was very fun to use, but I have a feeling it might be overpowered considering how IC/OOC works.

Feedback for Future PT Sessions
Include wis/vit/def building items in the shop. I want to figure out just how effective abilities can truly be with the highest wis stat possible, and how much time of IC can be shaved off by the highest achievable vit stat. If exaltations are being tested again in the next session, let us be able to activate/deactive certain features such as armor proficiency, so we can gauge just how much the difference between 1/5 (0.2s total reduction) and 5/5 (3s total reduction) will impact players in dungeons and the realm.


#515

From my understanding, your pet gives about 39 hp every 2 seconds currently (about 164 vit). With the current proposed system, vital combat reduces it to 39 hp every 4 seconds, halving it (to 82 vit). It also approximately halves your pet’s mp regeneration. (this is only while in combat, outside of combat your healing will be greater than it is now)

For a maxed divine pet they recieve 90hp per second. With vital combat, this is reduced to 90 hp per three seconds, so their pet’s abilities are thirded, rather than halved. Ignoring other stuff I can safely say that you will feel less difference with your pet than they will, so they are getting (relatively) nerfed more than you.

All numbers I am pulling out of this spreadsheet here. I don’t think its out of date but if it is someone correct me.


#516

Actually, I think the indicators for 0.2/0.4/etc… were the cumulative decrement for IC, meaning that the total reduction would be 1 second…though I’m not 100% positive on that >_<

It used to have an icon indicator akin to a status effect, but that was removed during this PT session (although in reality, it was just made invisible; you could see that, while you were afflicted with a status effect during IC, it would be offset slightly). I personally like the yellow outline on your character’s healthbar alongside the downwards arrow on your side UI’s healthbar, though players playing without those former healthbars enabled are definitely at a disadvantage.
Maybe a toggle for the status effect icon could be implemented to circumvent this?

I don’t have a lot to say on this, other than agreeing with the points made in this thread. Puri’s just a victim of needing to balance an extremely powerful mechanic…

Though ngl, it’s very nice to see how much discussion this PT has stirred up. Good to see the community take a closer look at game mechanics, and always nice to see their thoughts on it all /w\


#517

I’ve always admired one thing in particular about the design of Realm of the Mad God, especially in its earlier patches, and that’s the lack of grinding present for an MMO. You can reach max level in 20-30 minutes for instance, rather than the hundreds of hours needed in Classic MMO’s. (As an aside, you can view pets as a replacement for that classic leveling system, but just about everyone realizes at this point that pets are a problem and the new Vital Combat System does address it)

Many people use the term “grind” liberally when talking about this game, but I believe that they aren’t using the term correctly.

You see, a grind is an activity you do, but don’t enjoy, in order to achieve something you want. And many Realmers conflate a game being a grind with having a quick gameplay cycle.

Just because you’re consistently filling up your inventory, consistently clearing realms, or consistently maxing a new character, does NOT mean you aren’t enjoying the task at hand. Yes, it’s possible to not enjoy one of these things at any given time, and do them anyways (Candland comes to mind as a very grindy experience), but the lack of enjoyment is far from inherent. Compare this to an MMO with a simple combat system that isn’t designed well enough to be interesting after 1000 hours of leveling up.

What I’m getting at is that although I can tell a lot of care and problem-solving went into the Exaltation system, including it would introduce a major grind factor to the game. By attempting to fix pets and adding in Exaltations, it’s one step forward and two steps back to making the game more enjoyable.

This is because grinding as I have described it about is inherently unfun, and the Exaltation System is the Ultimate in grinding. Not only do I very much NOT want to do 400 dungeons perfectly in a row per class (Or whatever larger amount it would be if I failed a few times) but I very much do want those stat bonuses the system grants. Because increasing the upper limit of stats is worth an incredible amount.

I’m going to avoid going full math mode here, but feel free to ask me to show my work in detail and I will in a later post. But basically, if you plot max HP increase by the market value of HP-increasing rings, you can find that a +25 max HP gain on a character with maxed HP is worth 38 life pots. If I do 50 Sanctuaries with a class, then any character I max life in of that class gets 38 life pots of value. Forever.

Maybe this is already known, and it is seen as an appropriate reward for a grueling task. Even if it is a proper reward, it introduces a lot of grinding I can’t justify not doing if I want to be in the top bracket of the player base. And I really think when people say they are quitting because of the Exaltation System, this is what they are trying to voice. That it isn’t fair to suddenly make the game they enjoy into a game that requires their lack of enjoyment to progress.


#518

I get your point, but that’s not what a grind is. Grinding, into terms of a video game, is doing the same thing over and over to achieve a higher level or find specific items and whatnot. One can totally enjoy the grind and it’s not inherently defined by being unfun.


#519

Yup happens to the best of us :slight_smile:


#520

I would simply call your definition of grinding “Playing the game.” I see a grind in a video game as bad game design, because it’s a tedious and usually mindless activity required by the game. You’re right that doing the same task over and over can be enjoyable, and so I think it’s a mistake to call it a grind.

But definitions aside, you do see my point. No one wants to repeatedly attempt 400 dungeons times 16 classes, and so locking permanent max stat increases, which I’ve demonstrated are worth a lot to players, is not fair.


#521

You are trying to define grind for all players by your own terms and experience. As Nameless said, a grind, in terms of a video game,(not your terms) is doing the same thing over and over for your own reasons that may or may not benefit you. A grind is not a bad game design, a bad game design is the situation of a power creep in realm, so the expectation to achieve the best items is there guarded with a harsher grind, but that doesn’t mean you cant play this game on your own terms and do just as well as someone with better items. Nonetheless, grinding forever in this game can be taken into the players hand as there are different dungeons to diversify that experience of a mindless grind; and enhance the enjoyment or experience of the grind. You may not enjoy grinding these dungeons as the way they are with the goal of just getting every single item from the dungeon, but many do. A goal for many players of this game is to grind all the items in the game, whether it is enjoyable or not, it is a goal. Just as doing the absurd amount of dungeons across 16 classes for permanent rewards, is a goal. A grind and something to work towards to for those who want it, so they get these permanent stats and other buffs. You understand that these rewards are worth a lot to players, and so they should be worked for, especially if they are permanent buffs. I find your thinking extremely faulty, how do you justify that locking good rewards (that is worth a lot to players because it is permanent) is unfair because it requires the player to return high risk and time in return? Why should these rewards be so easy to achieve? However, I agree that the requirements are high as they are at the moment and according to someones math it would require 4 years to achieve the maximum rewards across all classes, but as the intention of this system, it is a long term goal to not be achieved within just a few weeks or months across all your characters. I do hope they can change the requirements and lessen the punishment of a setback when dying, but dont try to take away the enjoyment that this new system will bring to many players just because you feel that this sense of grinding is a punishment.


#522

I would love to see this spreadsheet with before update and after update values, do you have it? I have understand that they will lose more in quantity, but I’m saying about the feel in the game, my pet is not something that make me good enough to do a lot of things because of it, it helps a lot, but it’s not for a nerf needed, so why nerfing something that even isn’t good enough, why does not put a lvl max at 70/70? 80/80? i’m certanly that is more prifitable maxing your pet to 100 without being good enough.


#523

Ok! I just made a draft sheet right now. Its slightly different than the one shown previously ( graphs are found at the bottom of the tables, and shows hp per sec instead of vit, as vit does non-constant hp per sec now) Somebody correct me if i’ve made an error in the calculation values (or tell me if it doesnt work or if its trolling-proof and stuff plz)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aysl1TrxpqaMYNPzpyN4-1HwxGa6p75VbSV2Hep-Zdc/edit#gid=0


#524

I find it very unfortunate that being 8/8 is required to avail exaltation since I generally do dungeons at random without really caring how maxed I am. It’d suck to manage to do, for example, a small Fungal on a 0/8 but not get any benefits from it because you didn’t max a stat, even though running the dungeon on 0/8 is significantly more difficult.