Rework Godlands

[Serapis]

I did not intend to be disrespectful, though I can see how you view it that way.

I have put a lot of thought into the changes of each god and have attempted to visualize it in play. I understand your concerns for how status effects like paralyze will be in extreme situations like godwalls, but do know I’ve done my best to add the least difficulty as possible with the dynamic godlands goal in mind.

I’m sorry if I seemed a bit too offended. I entered this conversation wanting to specifically talk about how I don’t think you’ve really nerfed any gods, and while I might have been a bit off in saying you buffed everything it just seemed like the response to that original statement was that I wasn’t contributing enough because I wasn’t addressing the entirety of the idea and instead just focusing on a specific thing. Especially with what JohnMH said it seemed like me disagreeing with one thing turned into me not understanding anything at all about the idea which was really annoying.

Aside from the Beholder, these are the other concerns you’ve brought up. (And I do apologize for not addressing them and instead quoting my original post)

The ent god and ghost god rework benefits mainly melees and other high dps classes, making any class good at clearing weaker than they were before.

I do agree that the Ent god would be an easier opponent for melees and high dps classes, but it was intentional. However, I do not agree with the ghost god being grouped in with that statement. The ghost god would be activated well before melee range while also shooting immediately. On the other hand, ranged damage dealers would need to risk getting closer than normal in order to kill it.

Though the ghost god is activated well before melee shooting range, it already is in its current form so this would just be reducing the amount of shots melees have to dodge to get to it, while ranged classes are now forced closer to the most damaging shots currently in godlands (not counting Medusa bomb because it’s not a ‘shot/bullet’, and your new changed would add an additional shot that ties its damage).

Anyway, I have attempted to make certain gods less melee friendly as a result of their new behavior. A couple would include the Medusa’s chase pattern as it isn’t terribly easy to circle one if it is constantly moving, and the white demon with its close range bleed.

I’d like to also bring attention to the Flying Brain, they will fire weakening shots if the nearest player is a class with high dps. All of the god changes coincide with each other, it helps to visualize them together rather than separately.

I’m having trouble visualizing how changing the chase pattern would affect circling, unless it would result in erratic movements that put it into the path of the person circling it? For the bleed change on white demons I can see how it would make it more difficult for melees, but 20 damage shots 20 hp/sec that doesn’t stop pet healing really doesn’t mean much, a single medusa bomb would do more damage to all but the most def heavy melees, with the bleed shot doing 80 dmg total.

I guess the flying brain and slime god together would pose a challenge for melees, even just one of each, that’s a fair point.

Making Medusa have a more complicated pattern to hit makes the fight more difficult, plain and simple.

I can somewhat compare the Medusa to the Leviathan in terms of actually hitting them. When I first encountered Leviathans, I did have trouble killing them due to their unfamiliar AI, but with time I’ve been able to compensate for it and even reliably land spell bombs on them. With a change like this, the Medusa will be more threatening to newer players, but when enough time is spent with them they’ll be easier to manage than before.
I suppose this one is more of a personal opinion, but I’d find them to be easier foe this way from my experience with the game.

Part of the difficulty would be if the Medusa doesn’t follow you as quickly you would be more likely to have to either tank the bomb or do a wide angle strafe, with the wide angle strafe putting you at risk of attracting other gods, and tanking bomb being tanking the bomb. This could encourage circling more, though if you say the chasing change would also make that harder to do then it seems like it would lead to a fight that will do more damage to you.

My one other concern I haven’t addressed yet is Ent God healing. 100 hp/s isn’t a lot from one ent god, but from my experience in godlands, and other people who I talk to confirming it, is that gods tend to be in groups with other gods of their types. It’s definitely not as prevalent/obvious as it once was, but that trend still seems like it could pose challenges for otherwise low damage classes by themselves. I guess godlands don’t really need to be balanced for solo play, as I’ve defended Halls on similar logic of this being a co-op game, but it seems like if someone wanted to start a new character on a weak class this could present a significant challenge to them.

I understand it doesn’t need to be easy, but in some ways it seems like this is pushing the godlands to a point where it is harder than some of the dungeons it drops, which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Gods still only drop t8 weapons, t4 abilities, t9 armors, and t4 rings, similar to stheno except she doesn’t drop abilities or rings. The reward change is very small compared to the difficulty increase relative to the highlands. It’s already hard enough for new players sometimes, this would just increase the learning curve which I’m wary about as we already don’t have people actually playing in highlands or stuff like that, so new players basically tp to godlands already because there’s nothing to do in highlands. Gods drop basically the same weapons in pink bags, and if you want to do any worthwhile dungeon besides the snake pit you need to go to godlands. More status effects would make encountering god walls even more dangerous for new players, even assuming they don’t get paralyzed.

I guess what I’d want to see most specifically if some changes mainly to the spawn mechanics that allow for not empty godlands with less common and/or smaller god walls before I would fully support a change like this.

[IExisted]

Though the ghost god is activated well before melee shooting range, it already is in its current form so this would just be reducing the amount of shots melees have to dodge to get to it, while ranged classes are now forced closer

Do you think increasing the tiles from 6 to 7 would be enough to make the difference needed? Or should I scrap the concept entirely and get something new?

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I’m having trouble visualizing how changing the chase pattern would affect circling, unless it would result in erratic movements that put it into the path of the person circling it?

The way I pictured something like this is by taking the Medusa’s normal attack. She shoots exactly where the player was, which is why circling works. If she moved in the direction where the player was, then she will be moving away from where the player currently is. This will give her enough space to be able to fire exactly where the player was, and is.

Does that help?

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For the bleed change on white demons I can see how it would make it more difficult for melees, but 20 damage shots 20 hp/sec that doesn’t stop pet healing really doesn’t mean much

I agree that it doesn’t mean too much, but with its 80+ potential damage on top of the white demon’s other shots it can add up. I personally wouldn’t want to buff it in any way though as white demons would also be able to lunge 3 tiles, which already makes their normal shots more dangerous.

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Part of the difficulty would be if the Medusa doesn’t follow you as quickly you would be more likely to have to either tank the bomb or do a wide angle strafe, with the wide angle strafe putting you at risk of attracting other gods, and tanking bomb being tanking the bomb.

It might be easier to dodge, it might be harder to dodge. I can’t say too much in regards to this, I’ve got no clue as to how something like this would play out, sorry.

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My one other concern I haven’t addressed yet is Ent God healing. 100 hp/s isn’t a lot from one ent god, but from my experience in godlands, and other people who I talk to confirming it, is that gods tend to be in groups with other gods of their types.

I used the constructs in god lands for reference when it came to how much they healed. Constructs heal to full HP, 2000, every second. Alone, 100 HP/s isn’t hard to overcome, but when there are multiple of these guys it could get out of hand.
I’d like to also point out that there is a natural cap to how much they heal, 1000, their max HP. I can’t really see 10 Ents ever being within four tiles of each other, but if it did happen they’d require half the DPS the constructs need anyway, while also being easier to hit.

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Err, now that I think about it, this can easily happen when gods over spawn in the Cyclops’ castle moats. Perhaps gods should not be able to spawn on a tile that is currently occupied by another entity?

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I understand it doesn’t need to be easy, but in some ways it seems like this is pushing the godlands to a point where it is harder than some of the dungeons it drops, which doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Gods still only drop t8 weapons, t4 abilities, t9 armors, and t4 rings, similar to stheno except she doesn’t drop abilities or rings. The reward change is very small compared to the difficulty increase relative to the highlands.

Aside from the dungeons, the potions are the most important things they drop. Considering that maxing is an extremely prominent feature in the game, perhaps the gods should drop a larger variety of potions at a slightly higher drop rate to make up for this?

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It’s already hard enough for new players sometimes, this would just increase the learning curve which I’m wary about as we already don’t have people actually playing in highlands or stuff like that, so new players basically tp to godlands already because there’s nothing to do in highlands. Gods drop basically the same weapons in pink bags, and if you want to do any worthwhile dungeon besides the snake pit you need to go to godlands.

Yeah, this could end up being pretty harsh on new players. DECA hasn’t added as much mid game content as they have end game, so newer players will be out of the loop.
Sadly, the only suggestion I have aside from adding more dungeons like the Hive is to make egg drops and low FP items (~400) more common in the lowland to highland dungeons. Getting the right pet to uncommon is a pretty big step when it comes to starting out in this game.

[Serapis]

Do you think increasing the tiles from 6 to 7 would be enough to make the difference needed? Or should I scrap the concept entirely and get something new?

Actually, rereading the exact behavior description, what does ‘no player in sight’ mean? Does that mean that you could activate it and then move back to range, or is supposed to enter invulnerability at 6 squares away? Robe classes can just activate it fine if it will stay active even at range, though if not 7 squares would probably be good.

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The way I pictured something like this is by taking the Medusa’s normal attack. She shoots exactly where the player was, which is why circling works. If she moved in the direction where the player was, then she will be moving away from where the player currently is. This will give her enough space to be able to fire exactly where the player was, and is.

Does that help?

I think so. If the Medusa moves a farther distance from the player while they are circling that reduces the player’s radial speed relative to them, so the shots are more accurate.

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I agree that it doesn’t mean too much, but with its 80+ potential damage on top of the white demon’s other shots it can add up. I personally wouldn’t want to buff it in any way though as white demons would also be able to lunge 3 tiles, which already makes their normal shots more dangerous.

I guess I might just be disappointed since I remember when they armor broke so even something like this doesn’t really impress me. The lunges would make it more dangerous for melees, and the extra shots too, so it probably is good, though the shot dmg has always seemed quite low, not necessarily much more than what ‘normal’ shots do to melees after defense anyways.

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I used the constructs in god lands for reference when it came to how much they healed. Constructs heal to full HP, 2000, every second. Alone, 100 HP/s isn’t hard to overcome, but when there are multiple of these guys it could get out of hand.
I’d like to also point out that there is a natural cap to how much they heal, 1000, their max HP. I can’t really see 10 Ents ever being within four tiles of each other, but if it did happen they’d require half the DPS the constructs need anyway, while also being easier to hit.

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Err, now that I think about it, this can easily happen when gods over spawn in the Cyclops’ castle moats. Perhaps gods should not be able to spawn on a tile that is currently occupied by another entity?

Not spawning on the same tiles would be a nice fix to moats, those can be kind of ridiculous. Needing a fraction of the dps of constructs isn’t awful, but if you’re having trouble with the dps in the first place you’ll eventually get to 5/7 shots which would make doing the dps to the ents much more dangerous than constructs even though you need less. For reference, here’s a wiz fresh out of highlands, maxed rare, average stats at 20.

It has the dps to outdamage 6 ents together slowly, and the spellbomb used multiple times at once would help, but it’s still surprising what this would do to new players who are probably pretty weak if they are unfortunate enough to encounter multiple together. Priest actually has 540 dps under similar conditions, but bow classes can dip under 400, so it would definitely hurt some new chars more than others.

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Aside from the dungeons, the potions are the most important things they drop. Considering that maxing is an extremely prominent feature in the game, perhaps the gods should drop a larger variety of potions at a slightly higher drop rate to make up for this?

That’s something that’s been mentioned before and people seemed to like it, would probably go well with something like this. Might be hard to decide what gods get what, and removing def from one of the 4 gods that drop it might not actually be a good idea, but there’s options. Horse doesn’t drop any pots, could add there, probably should do that even without a larger rework.

[IExisted]

Actually, rereading the exact behavior description, what does ‘no player in sight’ mean?

No player in sight would basically mean when the god is in its Idle phase. I’ll reword it along with some other changes later to be more specific with that. Also, I don’t know how many tiles away a god will need to be in order to become idle. I reckon it is between 10 and 15 though.

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Needing a fraction of the dps of constructs isn’t awful, but if you’re having trouble with the dps in the first place you’ll eventually get to 5/7 shots which would make doing the dps to the ents much more dangerous than constructs even though you need less.

It has the dps to outdamage 6 ents together slowly, and the spellbomb used multiple times at once would help, but it’s still surprising what this would do to new players who are probably pretty weak if they are unfortunate enough to encounter multiple together. Priest actually has 540 dps under similar conditions, but bow classes can dip under 400, so it would definitely hurt some new chars more than others.

It doesn’t hurt to run away from a fight that isn’t worth winning. We already do it all the time with the nexus button.
I think that having Ent Gods oriented towards giving new players a harder time than they normally would isn’t such a bad thing. The majority of the player base already ignores constructs despite being capable of producing walls of projectiles, each dealing either 50, 70, and 80 damage per shot. A group of up to 6 Ent Gods dealing 70 damage each would be more troublesome, but at least they would shoot 2 less projectiles as they’ll be at full HP.

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Horse doesn’t drop any pots

Totally forgot about this guy. For what he’s worth I think he ought to drop more than one pot. Could be Def, Vit, and Wis, but with drop rates that make him worth just as much a 3 gods.
That’s an idea that is better off when put together with reworking the rest of pot drops though.
They could make gods drop the pots their dungeon drops for all I know.

[Zquidx]

It’s usually pretty difficult to evaluate gameplay changes, so I’ll address the “why?” part of your idea:

Much of the appeal of godlands is that it can be mindlessly farmed while being relatively safe and still reward some progression (in the form of fame).

I think it is important to have an aspect of the game that appeals to the player demographic who returns home after a long day of work and just wants to “realm and relax”. Yes, godlands might be repetitive and unstimulating, but it can also be therapeutic - and we shouldn’t take that value away.

[IExisted]

I think it is important to have an aspect of the game that appeals to the player demographic who returns home after a long day of work and just wants to “realm and relax”. Yes, godlands might be repetitive and unstimulating, but it can also be therapeutic - and we shouldn’t take that value away.

I couldn’t agree more with that statement. I personally have spent most the majority of my hours in RotMG on autopilot with my music playing while in the Godlands. I did not consider how changes like these might affect the most common way I play the game, so I’ll do my best to analyze each god in that regard.

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Beholder: It is unlikely that you would notice a change here.

Ent God: Will only be noticeable if there an abnormally large number of them within 4 tiles of each other.

Flying Brain: Assuming that you dodge their status inflicting projectiles as well as you would a Beholder, you probably won’t notice a different here either. The weaken effect is noticeable if hit, like blind or slow, but if I am on autopilot I probably wouldn’t care to be slowed down in terms of dps for 3 seconds.

Ghost God: Somewhat noticeable, but I can’t see this interrupting a person who is on autopilot.

Medusa: Very noticeable. I’d argue that she would be on par with the Leviathan, so unless you think the Leviathan is out of place she should be fine with the changes.

Slime God: Less noticeable, a high damage shot and sickness don’t take away from your experience as much as the slowing status effect will.

Sprite God: Also very noticeable. With the boomerang property on their quiet shots, it is more likely that you’ll see you mana gone, albeit for 4 less seconds.

Sprite Child: Can be very noticeable, but I reckon that these little guys hardly matter to your experience.

White Demon: Very noticeable too. Only the 3 tile lunge though.

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From this analysis the only three that stand out to me are the Medusa, Sprite God, and White Demon.

I’m not too certain as to what I’d do with the Medusa since she’d be just as hard to hit as the Leviathan. She’s on thin ice though.

I think the boomerang quiet shot can be lessened by reducing its range from 14.4 to 9, that way it will return in less than a player’s view distance.
(Thinking about it now, it would be pretty cool if it was timed in such a way that the Sprite God fired another quiet shot right after one had returned.)

I can’t really say too much about the White Demon. It’ll definitely screw with a player who is on autopilot. The only way I think this can be avoided is by preventing him from lunging unless a player is within like 6 or 7 tiles.

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Overall, the rework example doesn’t seem to be drastic enough to take that aspect away from the godlands.

Do you think these changes will make the difference needed to keep the Godlands ‘relaxing’, or Is there something else you think needed to be addressed?
And if ya got a suggestion to address another concern of yours, then shoot that while you’re at it.

[MechmanZ]

It would be fun to change up the glands, but idk how you would make it to where newer players can handle the new dynamic. The idea of having players gradually going to the glands is a very smart idea. I see a lot of times, players who just skip to the glands which in my opinion is not very healthy for the game.

[IExisted]

I’ve updated the original post with a few changes.

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I’d like to point out a few ideas brought out by discussion. These ideas have the potential to make the game more enjoyable on their own.

• Lowering the radius around the player in which Gods will not spawn. (Thanks OB)
  • Fixes empty Godlands
• Prevent enemies from spawning on top of each other. (Would not include pre-coded spawning such as the Reproduction trait or the Cemetery.)
  • Fixes gods over spawning in castle moats
• Have common egg drops and low FP items (450 and under) more common in the lowlands to highlands.
  • Helps newer players get into the game without affected mid to end game content.

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@MechmanZ Lowlands and Midlands will probably need a rework themselves before even a small scale change were to be made with Godlands. I don’t mess around with that content, so I’m not surprised I overlooked it while in the process of making this post.

[system]

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