Some Design Lessons from Realm

#1

I am curious to know the community stance on these issues; here are mine:

  • When adding visual variety (through skins), ensure that a category can still be easily distinguished by looking at it. Realm skins have rendered other players as visual nonsense. I don’t know if a class I’d like is around me. In general, respect what is shown to the players on screen. Don’t fill it with useless clutter like pets that mimic enemies.

  • Give bullets contrasting borders/outlines. Day and night difference for visually impaired players that is a good design move in general.

  • Think twice about frustration effects such as confuse and blind. I don’t know a single respected bullet hell that employs these. Go for damage-inducing or other debuffs that don’t actually hinder one’s ability to play the game on a fundamental level.

I enjoy RotMG. This is written in good spirit. I do think that the game will be vulnerable to competition in coming years (it’s biggest advantage for the longest time has been a lack of competition), and fundamental gameplay improvements will be its best line of defense. Gameplay deepening (fleshed out mechanics and thoroughly designed content), not broadening (simply chugging out more content) is what separates releases forgotten from cult classics.

#2

Definitely agree with your say on confusion and blindness. Confusion at core is just a lazy status effect. I feel like understanding the confusion controls and switching back forth through the effect durations is simply obnoxious. It’s more likely to get players to quit the game rather than enjoy the challenge. Blindness on the other hand? It affects some people, and it doesn’t affect others. I don’t see the reasoning behind making a status effect that doesn’t affect everyone equally. I also agree with your statement on gameplay deepening. What’s the point of spewing out dungeons and mechanics if the foundation is undesirable?

#3

Skins could definitely be confusing, but I haven’t really had much trouble with finding out which classes are in my dungeon/area. Right now, you can do “/c” to see what characters are in the dungeon/realm, or you can put the cursor over the characters on the bottom of the UI to see what gear they have (I guess a judge of competence). Deca could add settings that toggle skins, or clothes/dyes, but these aren’t really on the top of their agenda.

These are good ideas, we can only hope that Deca adds more “customization” in the future.

I think confusion is one of the most challenging aspects of realm. On one hand, it is unique and can be conquered by learning confuse controls. On the other hand, one could argue that this is too tough, but removing confusion as a whole would decrease the threat level of any enemy that can inflict it drastically. Maybe instead of a 100% change in movement button, maybe every two seconds or so you’re character just goes in a random direction or stays still for a small amount of time (probably less than a second, but everything here is just my thoughts). Blindness on the other hand doesn’t really hinder gameplay as much, I don’t think that requires any change.

#4

pserver moment

#5

After reading your “buff” for confusion, I’m actually happy that confusion in Realm is the way it is right now.

However, remembering the old days where skins are rare and you can tell where the priest or pally is at a glance (or that there’s only like 1 skin) I do like those old days. An option to turn off skins (along with pets) would be fantastic.

#6

Agreed, sometimes its difficult to spot a support class you want help from if they wear a skin you don’t recognise and you are in a big group. The problem comes from adding too much skins that don’t have the characteristics the default skins have. Take the priest for example. He wears robe and fires a wand. Now these 2 simple characteristics should be included and highlighted in each priest skin, but a lot of skins lack these in exchange for unique designs such as the zombie nurse: it does not appear to wear a robe and has no wand. And there are more skins being added that have unique design so you can’t memorize em all.

Even more problematic when in groups, yes.

Just… YES

Ah yes, confuse effect. It is not frustrating for me, though being constantly affected by this or going in and out in quick successions is very annoying. Slowed on the other hand, is more than annoying, it’s painful. I really like having high speed, so it reducing the speed to 0 even though I have 75 speed is bugging me so much. I mean I don’t want to complete dungeons or other things faster, I just enjoy being quick on my feets. Oh and blind affects my game visibility a lot. So status effects being frustrating really depends on the gamer.

#7

To add to this, the sizes of bullets and enemies in general should telegraph how dangerous they are. Smaller bullets/enemies should not be dealing huge damage, and large bullets/enemies should not be harmless.

Post your unpopular opinions about realm here
#8

i personally believe that we can learn things by looking at the 3 different developers this game has had and their approaches to end-game (difficult) content.

Wildshadow:

  • static HP bars (no HP scaling) high DEF on big enemies.
  • large, high damage bullets with decent frequency
  • plethora of weak & quiet shots, these force players to back off to dodge OR have a knight chug enough MP pots to keep stunning. most status effect are on coloured spinners
  • some end-game bosses have healing to extend fights (tomb trio, O1.)\
  • not that many surprise instant kills (mostly after stun wears off)
  • bosses drop their loot themselves (giving high DPS classes a advantage, but also a burden upon the team, due to lowered utility)

KABAM

  • Static HP bars with HP easily surpassing 100k (avatar, LOD dragons, forgotten king.)
  • flurries of insane damage bullets (jon bilgewater, son of archana, megamoth, shatters trio)
  • stun-immune bosses due to introduction of pets. (making knight worth less.)
  • status effect on some spinners and some other other projectiles.
  • more surprise instant kills ( most shatters enemies, ice Sphere )
  • bosses drop loot chest to distribute loot evenly (but is pretty stingy)

DECA

  • static HP bars (100k+ early DECA era) later HP scaling (adding more players increase health accordingly, so soloing some endgame dungeon isn’t waiting 30 mins to finally burn trough excess HP)
  • high damage bullets in a actual bullet hell configuration.
  • status effects on colour-coded bullets
  • some bosses are immune to other effects as well (curse, weaken, slow, dazed) and sometimes lose these immunities.
  • more so the same amount of surprise instant kills, but often preventable trough slows, tough also often unnoticed due to large group sizes (60+ players)
  • greatly lowered soul bound threshold, and more guaranteed drops making drops more generous (rolled back a bit some patches ago.)

these are my observations of the design approach of end game bosses by the various developers trough the years, what are yours?

#9

I am aware classes can be figured out by checking equipment, but it’s not a feasible thing to do while in the middle of gameplay. I should clarify that I mean it’s difficult to tell which classes I am surrounded by in high-intensity situations.

I… I don’t think that confuse suggestion is a good idea in its current form ):

#10

Good point! This is another key lesson. I would supplement it by adding that debuff bullets should have universal colours (greenish for slow, reddish for armor break etc.)

#11

Thank you for the thorough response. You’ve covered a good deal with that structure, so I’ll just supplement the three things that I think are very relevant and stand out for me right now:

  • ‘Insta-pop’ enemy designs are quite prevalent. From the Parasite Chambers to the Mountain Temple, insta-pop enemies are everywhere.
    I personally don’t like insta-pop designs at all - a bullet hell game shouldn’t be about get hit once and die permanently.

  • Enemy danger is a bit out of order in some places, and this ties into insta-pop design (as well as size-based danger cues as pointed out by another player). The most dangerous enemy in the Parasite Chambers, for example, is the tiny Painling (in my rigid opinion). That is a minor enemy that is a nuisance, whereas the actual big and imposing minions one actually fights are actually quite doable (and well made, I love Parasite Chambers).
    Not only should one single minor enemy be unable to kill a character outright (ie. I think it is okay for the Jade and Garnet Statues to be able to do so, to some extent), an enemy that can kill you outright alone should be far more imposing visually.

  • Artificial visual difficulty has become a bigger part of the game recently: the bullets in Void and Heroic Abyss, as with several other areas lack contrast with the floor. Blind and darkness are abundant in the Halls, as they are in The Shatters.
    I absolutely abhor the idea of not being able to see as a difficulty mechanic, and being visually impaired really seals that deal.

#12

Thank you for your reply, i’ve been playing for about 8 years so its only natural that i picked some stuff up.

let me reply to your points.

  • insta pop is indeed an inherently bad design, which are compounded by runaway projectiles / screen clutter. painlings especially are TERRIBLE, since they can ambush you trough the destructible walls. a much better (tough still bad) design is those that insta-pop you trough low DEF, essentially discouraging low-level players from partaking.

  • Enemy danger, yeah. another good example is lost halls actually (unless you know that everything just kinda instakills you there) the golem of anger is red, and therefore warns you of danger, but the golem of sorrow is grey, small and yet has a 1000 damage shotgun.smaller enemies have an easier time sitting in a large group due to clutter and bad visibility. an example from older bosses would be the nile artifact from Geb (195 x 3 damage ouch!) but despite their (often) sudden appearance they are quite visible due to their bright color scheme

  • artificial visual difficulty can be further compounded by blind and darkness effect, as well as unseen enemies attack you (or already activating despite you not being in line-of-sight) older bosses like O1, O2, thessel, the tomb trio all have quite distinct bullet and despite them possessing some of the most deadly shots and effects in the game (O1 has 400 damage bullets!!!) these do not feel unfair, because they are well telegraphed and visible.

#13

In regards to this sentence,
I believe the lack of competition is a double-edged blade. ROTMG has dominated the market, however, they are not pressed to grow and/or market constantly to stay on top, thus, they stagger down in progress and gameplay. Having competition would be great for Realm.

#14

You’re on the money there. The lack of competitive pressure shows in certain areas.

#15

Absolutely agree with deepening content. Strengthening the core will make for a much more solid game.

#16

Really great reply, I totally would love to see more uniformity in regards to debuff projectiles. Of course I feel it’s nice to have bullets that surprise you once in a while like “EH? What a scary bullet!”, But in modesty rather than constantly.

A good example being like a giant thunderbolt or something that totally stands out due to size, shape, or colour contrast.

Anyways yeah, as an old player it’s been strange for me to adjust to the nuances of DECA’s choices, but it’s also a little refreshing. I feel as though these choices could have a lot more thought put in though, comparing content to Wildshadow’s work.

#17

Toastrz, reading the Secluded Thicket getting more love in terms of design choices:
Xolotl%20dancing%20at%20double%20speed

#18

lol the thunder bolt was just really cool, they could remove everything and I would just be happy to see that mechanic

#19

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