[Spoilers] Further Tome Changes, Reconstruction/MotMG/Early Game Rework and more

#44
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I wanted to leverage the permadeath aspect of the game into something that would support much longer-term play. The heart of this was turning the vault into an expandable house. You would be able to retire your characters for a bonus (rather than having them die), and live in the house – with the number who live there based on what you’d paid to expand the house, of course. There was to be a cemetery where you could see your old, dead characters, an expanded pet yard, and a trophy case (itself a call-out to the very first text dungeon adventure, Colossal Cave) where you could keep heirloom and other items.

The heirloom items were ones that you could keep across characters. They would last for a limited number of lives (that you could buff, naturally, to get them to last longer) and that helped each class in different ways. The more parts of a set you collected, the more powerful they all were.

This plus additional lands, the ability for players to create their own dungeons (and earn in-game cash by selling keys)… lots of things.

I should say too that this is how it is with almost any game: the designers inevitably have a huge backlog of things they want to do but never get the chance. So it goes.

-msellers

#45

It’s one thing to just have bare concepts for something and another to actually try implement them. Although you’ve at least shown me they had something on mind, I guess. But instead, they added pets and dungeons that were broken on release.

#46

I think the active community would be surprised at how many people just quit the game and are waiting for a good time to come back (me included). If they get at least most of the balance right for MotMG, it will bring back a lot of players, but this may be the only shot they get. People move on, and if the game isn’t showing promise, then why stick around? sunk cost fallacy or not.

#47

Well yeah, those are all true…
Do you know what is also true?
Puri got group purification back and tomes removed cooldown because there was community feedback and Deca didn’t want to ignore that, so they met at a middle ground

So
A. Your entire argument is invalid, it doesn’t matter if they didn’t listen to feedback in the past, listening to major community feedback is what they are doing right now
And
B. Myself, and a lot of other players, like the Puri changes and ironically if Deca did what you wanted they would be ignoring major community feedback. I mean seriously? Do you honestly believe that your feedback matters more than mine in the slightest? You’re right, a lot of the community hated the priest changes, I’m just so freaking tired of all those people ignoring the group that’s about the same size that loves the priest changes.

So stop talking about this “not listening to community feedback” bullcrap, that’s what they are presently doing, they are trying to listen to community feedback, but not just one side, both sides. Your opinion matters no more than my own so stop with that entitled attitude as well

#48

The whole point is for people to have an extremely long-term progression goal beyond 8/8. Making exaltation accessible to new players is not at all the point. I think they have it set up pretty well, where they are fairly minor stat boosts that new players probably wouldn’t care about, but experienced players might want to chase after for further optimization/bragging rights.

#49

I’ve kept fairly quiet about my stances since the last couple of proposed change reveals (I mean, why would I bother saying anything in the flood of arguments? I know where I stand for most of the debates), but the Exaltation process is the one thing I raised an eyebrow at. Yes, I’ve agreed with the concept of the idea since it was first suggested a long time ago, but the numbers flying around with even perfect runners seems a little high, even thinking long-term.

Perhaps I’m underestimating the sheer valor and dedication of some players, but being completely honest, even with all of the delightful improvements (and some less so on occasion) DECA has instigated, I’m not sure how many years more the game will be operating. I’m a little nervous that the average decent player will attempt completing even a single exaltation, and that’s it. The plan might have been to use the exaltation process to extend the game lifetime, but it does feel a bit… hollow. I’m not saying make it new player friendly at all, but… it’s a little over the top?

As for the other argument starting to unfold above about DECA, it reminded me of a similar statement I made back before when the bard was released. I’m too lazy busy to actually reconstruct my points here, so I’ll link directly to the thread. (I don’t really hear much in the way of trashing bards anymore lol; knowing every argument thrown pre/post tweaking and release, it hasn’t seemed especially game breaking…)

#50

While I generally agree with most changes: I personally find it difficult to contextualize many of them without having an idea of what the developer’s direction in closely interwoven elements like combat design are. I think communication can be improved simply by extending a balance discussion to a broader vision - and by not thinking of changes in a vacuum (or simple, direct factors like ‘health’ and ‘better balance’).

For example: Do I think puri should be nerfed? Yes, I think that can pan out nicely - if it incentivizes improving some fights by removing status effect spam. Pets getting nerfed? Simply yes. However, I’d like to know if you’re thinking retroactively when you decide that - will you touch up some enemies to remove instapop elements that help create deaths in the presence of heal bloat?

#51

You are aware that a lot of the community (I’m not necessary saying the vast majority; just at least a sizeable chunk) actually agrees with the changes, right? Don’t assume that just because you think something, that that is suddenly the popular or correct perspective.

#52

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It shouldn’t be attractive to new players anyway, but it will be lowered.

#53

DECA do though have a way to measure these, a way which is largely invisible to existing players. They can measure engagement and retention. They can’t do much easily about how people find the game (they can advertise but that’s expensive). But as people find ROTMG they can measure how many people stay for e.g. more than 24 hours, how many people leave and never return. They can also measure how much people are playing, so how active current players are.

These directly measure how much people not currently playing the game are willing to give it a try once they find it. And they are largely invisible to us. We can get some idea of engagement – how popular the game is with exiting players – from e.g. how many servers are crowded. But this is very crude: DECA could log the current number of players on every server in realtime if they wanted. We have even less idea about retention, but DECA can and probably does measure retention with at least as much attention as engagement. A lot of this information will be collected for technical reasons, such as knowing how much storage is needed for new players, but it’s useful for knowing how new players respond to changes too.

Basically there is a lot we don’t know about the game that DECA does know, and can track in great detail. So I would not worry about DECA not being able to investigate what makes players leave or stay. I suspect the steady stream of events is because they know it keeps players engaged, over other things such as Rifts which had far less impact.

#55

Basically there is a lot we don’t know about the game that DECA does know,

That’s the gist of it yeah. It explains why so many people have this warped perception about what’s good for the game (including me). None of us are game designers - I think that’s all that needs to be said.

(accidentally deleted post cus im new to the forums lol)

#56

I still see people calling him garbage in-game. Some people say he’s good. It’s still a mixed bag of responses.

After DECA revealed to us that there would be potion chests, I suppose the issue of Exaltation being exclusive to 8/8 would go away with its introduction since maxing should be much easier by then.

#57

heh

I’m now wondering just how much Deca actually tracks this kind of stuff though. On the other hand things like the amount of activity on the testing servers say a lot already so maybe they don’t even need to.

speaking of events specifically, there’s issues outside of it being engaging short term. I don’t know though, it seems like they’ve somewhat slowed down on the “steady stream” recently. Or maybe it’s just me.

#58

Why… Why only 8/8? I only augment my character to 7/8 at the max…

IMO, a character should be at least 4/8 (max ATT, DEF, DEX and SPD) before qualifying for Exaltation itself. But the Exalt. itself only takes effect after a type of stat has been maxed.

#59

Deca isn’t going to alter their entire system because you don’t like how an 8/8 grave looks

To answer all the questions asked about why it must be 8/8, I have 2 answers

A. Exaltation is meant to be beyond 8/8, so why should you be able to start going beyond 8/8 at anything less?

B. It passively makes pub endgame more viable as people who are way below 8/8 and would do nothing more than bump up the hp scaling are less likely to join if they don’t go up in exaltation levels because they aren’t 8/8

#60

I don’t think Deca are doing the right thing by changing early-game content. It’s iconic, and the simplicity of OG sprites is one of the key aspects of it - all of it looks simple because the dungeons themselves are simple. They don’t need a change too look on par with O3. All the overshaded and heavily hue-shifted sprites presented here would clash with the style of enemies in realm that drop these early-game dungeons. For abyss/UDL, these would differ too much from other godlands level dungeons that are not a part of this rework but use the same simple style (sewers, theatre, manor, mad lab).

Another key aspect is that currently most of the shots in early game dungeons are well-visible because the backgrounds are easy on the eyes. Most of these dungeons use 1 or two types of floor tiles (sprite world being an exception with the moving conveyor belts as its main gimmick) and it makes it good for beginner players to learn the game because it’s easier to see what’s going on. Lack of decoration serves the same purpose - it’s less distracting to see a single femur or bone on the floor in abyss. Having large props that block the shots, and obstruct your vision will make it harder for learning. Large variety of tiles and terrain make the shots less noticeable and dodging harder (a very good example of the bad dungeon design is MT. The art itself is very beautiful but it’s very hard to see enemies and their shots in rooms with lots of decorations, and they often get stuck there. At least the boss room is not so distracting).

In my opinion, the sprites presented in this post will fit much better if they use them to update the higher level dungeons based on the current early game (cdepths, ddocks, wlab) - these are currently just simple resprites of the easy versions. At least the change of higher-level content to more refined and polished would be justified and understandable.

#61

While I agree with the other comment you made about shot visibility being especially important in early game dungeons, I don’t think things being “iconic” is a good argument in this case. The primary people who will be experiencing these reworked dungeons (especially spider den) are new players. I know for myself the only reason I have gone through that dungeon for many years is to get the Tunnel Rat completion, and I just run through without looking at anything. We need the new players’ experience with the game to be as positive as possible in as many categories as possible in hopes that they stick around!

While we might have nostalgia attached to those old, simple sprites, a new player just sees bland, monochromatic shapes being dragged around a bland background. I think that the change is in a good direction.

#62

I just don’t think there’s anything inherently engaging about realm once you’ve reached a certain level of ‘richness’ - i.e. acquired lost halls whites, 8/8 all chars. This is where I’m at, and is why I’ve quit for now. There’s no long term goal, and although O3 extends this a bit, new content isn’t really the way games are meant to extend long-term engagement - they’re more like medium term. Events are super short term, and more of a band-aid fix, but there’s nothing wrong with them from time to time, Deca just overdid it a bit, and rifts are kind of like just longer events.

Now that I think about it, a lot of additions by Deca have been geared towards creating long-term engagement. That’s why I think exaltations are so exciting, because they really accomplish this goal (if done right).

I actually think a really good case study for this game is Planetside 2 (another niche mmo shooter), I could actually make a whole post on comparisons in game development between the two, but the short version is they both have very similar playerbases number’s wise, similar long-term development history (8-ish years), and are both struggling to keep players engaged in the long-term due to most of their vets having accomplished all the pre-existing short-term goals (get 8/8s, buy weapons, etc.).

What’s really interesting to me about PS2 is that they are also pushing a major game update (The Shattered Warpgate) in which the primary focus is the addition of missions in the form of daily quests and a long-term campaign. PS2 never has had missions before, it’s a bit of a sandbox, and so they struggle with player retention. Surprise surprise, you give player’s long-term goals - they stay long.

I think exaltation can only be a good sign of Deca’s efforts to keep players engaged for longer, and is probably a common occurrence in games -especially mmo’s- that last this long. So although there may be a few gripes here and there about exaltation numbers, I think it’s ultimately really good for the game.

(on a side note, longer quests, like month-long, would be really sick if done well for rotmg)

#63

Pretty much. Not against the idea, just don’t like the current one. I know for a fact DECA or aware of this… I wonder if/how they will change it now? There was another couple of really old ideas I liked better than (or that worked in conjunction with) this exaltation system, but we’ll see.

#64

Fine, they won’t alter it just because my distaste on appearence you are right about that.

And even if I choose to max my characters to 8/8, it is still very unlikely for me to Exalt because they requires Discord to have successful raids.