[Spoilers] Melee Nerfs, Warrior ST Rework, Endless Torment Updated and more


#61

Its up now (its kind of scary)


#62

im aware im late to this but these are the most idiotic class changes i have ever seen, I sincerely hope that they never see the light of prod


#63

They really are stupid ideas.


#64

(My introductory statement has been redacted as I have received new information about the state of proposed changes (most importantly that they are cancelled), but I still believe this talk about the game is one of value which is why I am leaving the thread up and being active in replies).

My immediate concern is group play. Due to the massive nerfs of buffs, group dps will be on a major decline. In addition, enemy debuffs will now no longer be able to be constantly or even reliably applied, making group dps and coordination, and confusion worse as well (resulting in much more death and perilous runs). A long time ago I had made a post about creating stasis indicators to deal with the problem of stasis timers screwing players, and seeing as how that to this day has not been fixed I am hard pressed to believe that the above will not be even more catastrophic than this.
Furthermore, I also think that removing immunities from bosses removes a lot of their identity, what makes them them. If you are able to stun the marble colossus on a tentacle phase or even in survival, has he not lost his identity? What makes the colossus different from say, Archdemon Malphas? The 3 seconds that he is unstunned and shoots out a few shots with the rocks? Of course this could be tinkered with, but it would be a very difficult balancing act that I could not see being healthy for boss fights on the whole, which I guess is one of the main bases of my complaints. With this rework, Deca is suggesting that fights are not only much longer, but operate mostly to entirely debuff timers which are impossible to know without extensive calling, if you knew when the ability was cast, or an indicator (which based on what I have said would be unlikely). This not only takes away a lot of the charm of these fights and the identity of these phases as previously stated (at least in my thinking), but it makes it even more tedious as they will now be less flavorful and longer. It is interesting to me that deca reworked the nest to fix the exact problem I am speaking about, but now have a goal of pushing the same nest that most people hated or at the least refused to do except on a global scale. If you disagree with this or believe it is false, feel free to respond in the comments (as with all of my points of contention in this post) and I will try to be as active on the thread as possible so that we have a productive discussion which hopefully makes a positive change towards the pending changes. I could potentially go into more detail with bosses, but I will spare that for potential future discussion in this thread. Next, I would like to take a look at the melee targeting here. Let’s face it, this update is a direct melee nerf with little to no compensation, and I am genuinely confused as to why. Were melees some of the best classes in the game? Absolutely, but why does this require a nerfing? The addition of wismod as well as buffs to suffering classes was something that helped them catch up from their previously obsolete nature and were unanimously well received, so I do not understand why a similar approach is not being taken again. If other classes were buffed, it would go another long way towards balancing and also not ruin the feel or actual gameplay of group / other classes like I feel this nerf does. I have no understanding as to why they felt mitigation had to receive a 10% decrease, or why they had to ruin the power of basically every enemy debuff (which is a global nerf, not just one to melees, making these classes worse as well), as they will have very fringe use or be a shell of what they used to be with these changes (with little to no compensation) Paladin is basically its former self before the rework that made it good, warrior is being significantly nerfed, and knight I would argue is now an unviable class.
In regards to Vitmod, most of the time that immunity will not be useful as you will only be hit by that shot enough for it to apply between immunities, but on the whole I am glad to see vitality becoming a useful stat that is beneficial (although I do take issue in how weak it is, why do enemies get a 100% immunity while players require 75 to even get half of that (especially when only 3 classes meet 75 naturally and only 2 more are realistically eligible to get to 75)?
I apologize for my thoughts not being well collected, I am running dungeons as I am posting this and cannot pay full attention to it. I will do my best to remain active on the thread and I encourage all of you realmers to as well.

TL;DR

  • Basing bosses around debuff timers makes many bosses lose integrity
  • Massively nerfing group DPS makes many bosses lose integrity (see The Nest 1.0 as this is literally no different than if it was a small nest group then, as you are effectively cutting down the player size with this change)
  • Basing bosses around debuff timers allows for trolling to not only be very easy but potentially very impactful with the dps nerfs, especially in important locations like The Void
  • Classes should be buffed to compete with other classes, this has been done once and worked wonderfully. Now we are nerfing two out of viability (the paladin and knight) with the warrior seeing a fairly strong hit to it as well? Unless deca is just intending for the game to be pushed to WizardOTMG, I do not see how this is productive to any goal. (Please don’t nerf wizard just because I said that)

P.S: I do not consider “It is still in testing” or “It is part of a bigger class rework” as talking points and will not be responding to them, as it is very clear to see what direction this is being taken in and I have already produced alternative ideas for full class changes or etc.

And one final note I forgot to add, I do not see how a class being important to a group is a bad thing, and it is certainly not just the melees who fill this role. I am about done talking for my initial post, reply and discuss.


#65

I’d also like to note as an extension to the P.S that I am aware bosses HP or etc could be tinkered with but that still does not change the point of contention I have with it, and I believe that no balancing of this would ever fix it (at least in terms of gameplay), so unless you have a direct contention with that or the aforementioned ideas in said P.S, then please do not reply with what was mentioned in said P.S.


#66

Where did u hear about this happening in the coming update? One of the mods was streaming PT and said the idea was scrapped until further notice. I assure you, one testing session with almost completely negative feedback was enough reason to hold off until another idea came up.
The vitmod and the change with debuffs on enemies needs a big rework before being implemented.

I’d like to hear any reasoning to back this up. This seems to be a popular opinion because people like to steamroll things. Rotmg is a grinding game and steamrolling is not meant to be a part of it. I’m talking about insta-ing bosses (bosses that are insta-proof have many invulnerability phases and are drawn out and boring) and clearing through enemies from the hardest dungeons in seconds. If you would like this type of game, I reccomend an idle clicker game where you literally just click to win. Because that is what rotmg is becoming by buffing classes and abilities to match the overpowered ones.
Idk if you were around for the days of Wildshadow, but the game was much different than it is now. It was a bit buggy because it was created and run by a small group, but it was very well balanced. You actually had to be careful and try hard to get good items. Now you can run around for one hour on a weekend to get some of the most overpowered items.


#67

I completely agree with Beah. Not much to say, but you have my support c:


#68

I read your entire wall of text and agree completely.

It’s a popular opinion because classes not feeling like total shit to play is important to the game. Look at any tier list in one of the many threads on the subject and you’ll almost universally see straightforward impactful classes at the top and classes that don’t do very much at all at the bottom, either because they are clunky to play (sorc’s bugged lightning for example) or simply don’t have a role to fill. Right now when you play Paladin or Warrior and use your ability you instantly see the results of that, and it feels really, really good to empower the group to that extent. Nerfing them won’t suddenly make low tier classes better, it’ll just make previously good classes into shit classes.
It won’t stop steamrolling either, since most cases of steamrolling are due to incorrect HP scaling values, and you better believe deca won’t rebalance every currently correct HP scaling enemy in the game to compensate. Cube gods will still get annihilated and shatters second boss will be guaranteed rage phase every time instead of only half the time.


#69

Appreciate it ^^


#70

do you respond to “no one’s mentioned it in a month and deca has already appeared to have abandoned it yet again”?

the spoiled melee mains have won and the game will be frozen under the curse of hp scaling for the rest of the foreseeable future. because berserk and damaging more than double a group’s dps just from those two status effects alone, enemies have to have an absurd amount of hp to avoid steamrolling. they have so much hp that your contribution to the group is borderline irrelevant since it’ll be washed out by the other 40-100 people there and the twin damage buffs. the only thing anyone will ever notice is your ability and even then they’ll only notice it if it’s one of the super powerful ones.

you should also read this because I don’t want to type it all again.


#71

I apologize for my misunderstanding, I was late to hear the news so I assumed it was something currently on the table. However, I think this discussion would be good for ideas in the future as there is a reason class changes were suggested, and there could certainly be some buffs in the future. I also do agree that the idea for vitmod is not very strong, but a good usage for the stat in the future is certainly something to look into. And as for my comment, I do certainly think that enemies should / would need to be modified to accommodate for this whether in hp or armor, but it would even out some of the class disparities that are present today. If any class changes are to be made, I think they should take careful and extensive consideration when deciding what to change, as many classes have their own unique and valuable assets that make them powerful, not just their raw damage output. But to respond more to the second half, i am not at all asking for a steamroll or even bosses that die faster, just bosses that are not painfully boring and operate on timers. Obviously if class damage values or etc were to be buffed the enemies should be as well, this would just mean that the difference between the actual classes is not as large in some cases, nothing to do with boss clear rate. At any rate, I feel the classes are generally pretty good right now, but a buff or two would be something I (and the predominant players of those classes) may appreciate. Hemmi ng had left a satisfactory response to your post so I apologize for the text wall, but they and I have left comments that I believe will explain your contention c:


#72

Perhaps. I already apologized (see above) as I was not made aware of this and people in the realm were talking as if it was around the corner so you will have to forgive me, but I will reply to your response to the best of my ability regardless.

I will not respond to your describing of “The loop” as chest event culture and etc is something I can only see as something deca has been perpetuating for a long time now, as for me the main appeal of the game is actually the realm and finding / doing everything in it and I believe that is definitely when the most fun is had, but that has not been their focus for a long time (at least I do not believe it is). It leaves an unsavory choice between the ideal route and the fun route, which is very unfortunate given that I enjoy solo / very low player count dungeons as they often require the most skill and knowledge of said portal, and something like more favorable droprates is an idea I have always had as a remedy to that (but that is for another time).

I do understand what you mean in the first point, but I would like to know what specific things you are referring to when you are talking about this, as many of them do often have their uses, it is just likely along the way and not at the actual boss, which is something that I fail to see a problem with given that it is just as important of a factor in the completion of a dungeon, although in some instances i would completely agree due to multiple classes possessing the same status options, or their abilities usage being too situational to matter in most relevant areas.

Your second point does also have sense towards this goal, but I do not believe that small groups will ever be more or of equal efficiency to massive runs, and I think that personally that is ok (which is why my pitch would be a different table based on count, as there is a tradeoff you make between quantity vs quality for your efforts). I am aware you said less noticeable, but there must also be the consideration for the difficulties large groups face as opposed to small groups, which situationally can matter a lot (whether it is leechers, unmaxed classes that squeak by on the healing but load on a lot more HP to deal with or etc). Even if the event / discord culture was removed, I still firmly believe that large groups are not inherently a bad thing, and in fact provide a lot of opportunities that would not normally be possible in a group of smaller nature (and I do not think anything short of a drastic change would change any of the things I have said, and I think it would be very unlikely that it would be positive)

The next point is reliant on the initial topic, but I would like to quickly state that equipment does in fact matter, especially depending on circumstance of the dungeon, phase, situation of the run and etc. It may be possible for one player to get away with this, but the disparity will rapidly become noticeable with the more players that are undergeared as things like damage windows, armored, recovery time and etc will continue to pile up in that player’s loss of damage while the enemy’s HP gain as a result of the player’s entry will not change.

This is an idea I had not thought about and I do quite agree with it, however there are also guild dungeons and things of the sort so I do still think my idea of the count for rate holds true. Maybe both could be implemented? Who knows, but I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I’m lukewarm on this topic as I do not believe the solution is as clear cut as you are making it out to be, but I do agree that something should be done in regards to that situation as it is a bit out of hand as it is.

That was all of the points in order (to readers of the thread I would encourage you look at Xaklor’s hyperlink for context), now I will respond to your message that has been left here.

I disagree with the mentality of us v. them that I have seen on the forums as it is very counterproductive and does not seek to generate an understanding or common ground between primary class players. I am not sure if you were specifically referring to me when you said this but I personally play every class frequently and enjoy all of them (with my least favorite probably being the bows), but this was just something I wanted to touch on as I have seen it a lot and do not think it is something that should be perpetuated. If I was what your vision of a “spoiled melee main” was, then I know I would not have bothered responding or reading your entire other post after seeing that comment as I would assume you are coming for my classes head or something of that nature, and a disconnect like that will not convince anybody.
If you could elaborate more on what the curse of Hp scaling is I would appreciate that, unless it was just what you already stated in your link (although if it is the text afterward I will be responding). It is true that these effects are powerful, but I don’t really see how this is an inherently bad thing. If it is in reference to the power of classes, there are many situations where other classes will have more utility than melees and I do not understand why this is not understood. Are melees powerful? Yes, but do they dominate the game? I wouldn’t say so. You also seem extremely bent on attacking HP scaling, but I feel that it is quite an effective mechanism. I have done well over 200-300 halls (and a multitude of every other dungeon) in my playtime, and from them I can say with certainty that the amount of people is most often not the deciding factor and your dps most certainly does not get lost. There have been multiple 100+ people runs that barely pass / fail the void, but runs with 6, 8, 12 that go without a hitch (with the speed being much quicker as well). I do not understand why you so firmly believe that the damage does not matter just because you can sometimes get away with not attacking, as this is (from all my experience and my friends as well) most definitely not the case. As a result of this, I cannot say the point afterward is true either.

I apologize for responding in the incorrect order (previous post onto current), but I hope you are satisfied with my response, or ready to debate it with a response of your own. Regardless of the outcome, I appreciate the effort and thinking you have put into your ideas and some of them I do quite agree with!

~Beah


#73

I also noticed that I contradicted myself in the fourth and tenth paragraph (not really) but I will explain this anyways to cover my bases. The fourth was assuming that both groups are at peak efficiency, but the tenth does present one of the dynamics that I believe makes larger groups not as powerful as you are deeming them to be, that being player tracking. While this is a term I just made up for the description, it is much more difficult to get a larger group to operate at a higher efficiency while it is much easier for a small group to reach it. Whatever your thoughts on that, it does tie in to my point that giant groups do not completely dominate the game by any means, as it is often the smaller runs which are more easily / quickly completed due to this dynamic, and is one of the main reasons I see both types of groups existing being a good thing. That being said, the loot table talks in the previous post are things that I think should be at least considered to be added before anything else, as it is a longstanding problem that I feel should have been fixed a long time ago.