Hello, I couldn’t possibly miss MotMG so I’ve been preparing for it with a few friends lately. During that time I realized that Vitality is still worthless. It’s a bit baffling, especially with all DECA has been up to too. Tons of rebalancing and what not.
Anyway, I’m just here to share an idea that popped into my head; it could be the solution and could hit two birds with one stone as well.
I’ve seen a variety of different proposals to buff vitality, that ranging from modifiers to debuff control. I believe we need to take a step back though. Vitality needs nothing special, really. All it need is to heal more per second.
Which is why I suggest changing the value from .12 per vit to .25 per vit. At 75 vit you will be healing nearly double than before. (19.75 hp/sec from 10 hp/sec)
On the flip side, pets. Max level pet heals would heal 80 hp/sec rather than 90 hp/sec to compensate for this, allowing for these pet owners to be able to attain the same regen rate at 76 vit. (All other levels will need to scale accordingly.)
This’ll lessen the effectiveness of pets slightly while simultaneously maintaining the current values of healing, and of course making Vitality play a more significant role.
Let me know what your thoughts are on this and what could be changed.
EDIT: My thoughts on this topic has since changed.
I still am for the idea of .25 heal per vit; however, the direct nerf to pets to help achieve this isn’t the right direction. Pet stasis of some form would need to be seen in all content, not just the new content.
Deca is never going to lower the amount of healing done by pets; it would cripple their reputation and by proxy, monthly profit. As for the increase in healing done by vitality, this has been discussed heavily before in the forums, depending on the mods online, this could be tagged or merged afaik. It’s a solid idea, but as each day passes, each thread is created and locked, my hope for implementation, let alone modification, is diminished.
Besides the normal comments that can be made on a vitality rework post, something I do want to touch basis on is your notion that vitality is useless. As much as I hate to admit it, pet abilities have become a core part of the game. And even if players are running around godlands with 90hp/s pets, new players, and freshly made characters still rely on vit heavily. It’s often overlooked yes, and it definitely needs a buff, modifer, or debuff modifer, but it’s still an important stat whether or not it’s effects are actively felt. Not to mention, pet abilities are directly related to the in game stats.
Personally I’m a fan of the idea of a vit modifer increasing the effectiveness of healing sources… straight up double healing, as you’ve proposed is a solid idea however.
It sounds good in theory.
Reminds me a little bit of the idea where your pet heal gets scaled by your vit, so you only receive full pet heal at max vit.
What I mean by it reminds me, is that if it’s done right, the outcome is players would have exactly the same heal power as they do now, but vit becomes more significant to max.
Personally I’m okay with vit as it is, playing anywhere with pet stasis you can notice the difference if you don’t have maxvit and don’t have good dodge skills/awareness, and if a player is lazy/careless to not max vit thinking it’s useless, there is content out there to punish that. I still think a smattering more of pet stasis is needed in general, eg lava could do it, and in some of the ancient content, eg. add to one or more god’s shots - as the more of pet stasis there is, the more significant vit (or dodging!) becomes.
Could you direct me to one of the threads regarding increased Vit healing? I looked around before making this post and I only found those complex solutions. Making a redundant topic post was not my intention.
Anyway, to think that this would cripple rep & monthly profit is a bit extreme. I agree there would be some negative, but in the end it is just one pet stat being reduced by 1/9, which is simply being moved to another game mechanic allowing for identical gameplay.
Vit hardly has a use for new players though, one of the main uses of Vit to begin with. This is because new players don’t have maxed stats, players will sooner get a lvl 30 pet than max Vit. That means they’ll have around 7 HP healed a second by that time. 7 HP/sec would heal about half the player’s health within a minute. In a fast paced game like RotMG, waiting over a minute every time you take a chunk of damage is a long time.
As for the idea of vit scaling health healed from outside sources? I love it. It easily could be the solution, but it has a serious flaw. Upon taking a look at the healing classes, the Necromancer, Priest, and Paladin, they thrive on healing, in fact they require it. However, they also suffer from lower vit when compared to similar classes as a measure of balance.
@Nevov
I’d like to believe that DECA is already putting pet stasis where it needs to be and is balancing the game around the current state of pets, but they are looking at the end game too much. New players need more attention.
I personally don’t notice the difference in vit when I’m pet stasised though. Assuming that pet stasis lasts around 5 seconds on average, you’d only achieve about 21 more health healed with maxed vit on a character. 21 health isn’t noticeable in my opinion.
A difference of 50 would be a bit more noticeable, which .25 hp per vit can manage.
(As a side note, I’m glad you remember my idea about pet’s HP scaling! It wasn’t scaled based on Vit though, it was based on max HP. Which made no sense, thinking back on it.)
@ItsGrandma
We don’t need that here, they brought up good points.
Could you direct me to one of the threads regarding increased Vit healing? I looked around before making this post and I only found those complex solutions. Making a redundant topic post was not my intention.
No problem! I did not mean to condescending, if I was I apologize. I suppose I could have looked for more, but at the same time I think the results might be sparse as well, or lost in time. I didn’t mean to discourage such conversations. I’ve just seen this here, on the reddit, steam threads, and even back on the old wildshadow forums.
Anyway, to think that this would cripple rep & monthly profit is a bit extreme. I agree there would be some negative, but in the end it is just one pet stat being reduced by 1/9, which is simply being moved to another game mechanic allowing for identical gameplay.
However the individuals who’ve put time and money into creating a divine pet, let alone maxing one, would be betrayed. And what of the plight of players currently trying to attain such a feat, only for their effective healing to reduced. Perhaps if the value of fame, feed, and monetary scaling wasn’t so ridiculous as pet levels increased, such a change could be implemented without back lash or opposition, but as it stands, players have poured (most likely) hundreds of dollars into pet food and maxing to max divine. As someone who’s just reached divine, it escapes me just how much time already you would have to dedicate to game to max one’s pet to divine without spending any money at all. And to those players, including myself, we’ve dedicated hours of our own lives at our occupations to attain these things. I’m not saying that pets cannot be nerfed, but I’d argue that’s it’s ethically wrong to nerf pets in such a method.
Vit hardly has a use for new players though, one of the main uses of Vit to begin with. This is because new players don’t have maxed stats, players will sooner get a lvl 30 pet than max Vit. That means they’ll have around 7 HP healed a second by that time. 7 HP/sec would heal about half the player’s health within a minute. In a fast paced game like RotMG, waiting over a minute every time you take a chunk of damage is a long time.
Fair point, I haven’t been a new player in a long time so my knowledge of attaining a pet was flawed. But I disagree with waiting to heal. The shortcoming of vit in this pet meta helps new players survive by the time they reach 20hp/s pets. Vitality enforces the importance of dodging, and the deaths in low lands, midlands, and high lands are there to improve a player’s skill level after numerous deaths. Pets are there initially to lessen the unforgiving nature of such a lesson, but it does not explicitly diminish it. A knight with max vitality with a common pet is still felt opposed to a wizard with low vitality (assume 0 defense). But, because of the meta, pets have made the base vitality stat useless with pets above a certain level and when pet stasis is not a factor.
As for the idea of vit scaling health healed from outside sources? I love it. It easily could be the solution, but it has a serious flaw. Upon taking a look at the healing classes, the Necromancer, Priest, and Paladin, they thrive on healing, in fact they require it. However, they also suffer from lower vit when compared to similar classes as a measure of balance.
Thanks! I’d like to claim credit, but this is idea has been mewled over for years now. Personally it reminds me of an item from league of legends called Spirit Visage. As for the flaw, I suppose we have different ideas for the system to be implemented. The general consensus is that besides vitality providing health regeneration per point (HPPS (hp per second) = 1 + 0.12 * VIT), vitality would also increase healing from sources per point. Thus, all classes would remain with their base healing plus whatever bonus received from vitality. Of the classes you mentioned, only Necromancer has lower vitality, (see https://www.realmeye.com/wiki/classes). And this is okay! In fact, this mirrors classical vitality in the sense that close range classes heal more than long range classes. I wouldn’t know of a perfect bonus to apply, I’d leave that up to Deca’s game mechanic programmers, however an example is as follows:
40 vitality gives 110% healing from all sources (a 300 tome would give 330 hp).
80 vitality gives 120% healing from all sources ( a 300 tome would give 360 hp).
I personally don’t notice the difference in vit when I’m pet stasised though. Assuming that pet stasis lasts around 5 seconds on average, you’d only achieve about 21 more health healed with maxed vit on a character. 21 health isn’t noticeable in my opinion.
Pet stasis is currently implemented in the jade statue encounter, the mountain temple, the nest encounter, the nest, killer queen bee, biff the buffed bunny, the encore, and the lost halls. Of these dungeons, only a handful of situations are presented where pet stasis is avoidable. It is in those situations that yes, vitality is not noticeable, but what Nevov was trying to convey is that in the rest of the situations, max vitality right now, with pet stasis can mean the difference between life and death. This is most felt during the killer queen bee fight, but can be felt as a new player attempting any of these situations outside of the lost halls or biff (instances were impending death likely follows pet stasis for new players). It is in these situations that any player, common or divine, are repeatedly affected by pet stasis in a situation where healing matters, that dodging matters.
The vitality mod for pet abilities, based on effective healing on the basis of whether of not a character is maxed vit or not,is also a good implementation of a vitality system, although while it positively compliments a pet nerf, it’s still not solving the issue with vitality standing.
I thought I sounded condescending, I’m glad we’re on the same page then.
When I mentioned threads about increased Vit healing (Changing the .12 per Vit), I meant specifically that concept, not the ones provided, but that’s fine because I do want to talk about them. It’s a bit off topic so I’ll dump them into details.
Link #1 & #5
Controlling the duration of debuffs or the extent of their effectiveness is a solid idea in itself; however there are some encounters in RotMG that rely on the player being inflicted by a certain condition, such as quiet during the Septavius fight. (Or quiet during the Oryx fight.) That reason isn’t as important as self inflicted debuffs though. Several UT items debuff the player as a means of balance, and to partially negate that makes said abilities much less situational than they ought to be.
Link #2 & #3
I like the concept here, but I think I may be a bit biased in that Vitality simply shouldn’t work that way. Your character is your life, not your pet. The pet is an addon to your character and to have your character modify the effectiveness of your pet is a silly idea to me. Not to mention that users who have yet to obtain a pet, or a good pet, will view Vitality just as before.Something that is kinda just there.
Link #4
This could work, but the big issue with it is that it infringes on the HP stat. Why max HP when you can max a stat that is cheaper, does the same thing, and boosts the rate at which you regain health? Even if the ratio was lower it’d still be either this outcome, or too insignificant to notice.
Link #6
This one is an interesting suggestion. I’m conflicted about this concept, that’s for sure. I don’t use potions often, only in emergencies, so this would only affect me in those scenarios, which having 6 of each potion is usually more than enough. I dunno, I personally don’t care for it, but it could make the world of difference for other players.
I find this a bit funny. Anything that happens to pets has to be indirect. A direct nerf to the effectivness of a pet, no matter how small is an absolute “No,” despite Pet Stasis doing the same thing indirectly, but to a much greater extent. Treating your pet as if it does not exist for a short period of time when it is needed most is “Ok” because it is under the guise of a debuff. That is the general consensus of RotMG players from what I can tell.
I’d say this is because you can spend money directly on pets, where as you can only spend money indirectly on in-game currency. (Loot from keys or selling the keys.)
I suppose this makes my solution very inadequate due to being direct. The reason why I suggested transfering a portion of the power of pets to Vitality in the first place is because if you directly buff Vitality without compensating for it, the game will suddenly have a drop in difficulty for some players. This is why wis mods are dynamic, they can be better, or worse. The problem with pets is that they can’t be better or worse. They simply are or aren’t.
This is where the concept of Vit affecting Pets comes into play. If Vit is so insignificant right now, and pets are so significant, why not make them directly related to balance out? I explained that a bit under the Link #2 & #3 details, but not fully. I stated earlier that direct nerfs are unpopular and widely unsupported by the community.
Allowing Vit to control the effectiveness of pets will be identical to a direct nerf to most players. Not everyone plays, or enjoys playing the classes in the game that have high Vit, so therefore they’ll be feeling as if they’ve been hit with a direct pet nerf.
I agree entirely with this. Players must learn from death, the whole point of the rogue-like genre of games. However, I don’t believe that Vitality assists any player for this. Vitality is there to help the player recuperate from minor mistakes, Def and HP are what force a player to dodge. It’s just that more HP regen allows the player to make more minor mistakes.
And as a side note, early on Vitality is overshadowed by something that all players can have access to. Just like pets, HP potions diminish the use of Vitality. A level 1 player will regen 2-3 hp/sec, or 1-3% of their max HP a second. Potions will replenish 50-100% of a player’s health in an instant. Health potions are plentiful in low skill areas. These potions were basically the pets of old RotMG, showing Vitality its worthlessness even then, just to a lesser extent in the late game.
Now Vitality sees no use in either. As I said before, a player will sooner get a level 30 pet before maxing Vit on a character. (Which is also permanent and consistent.)
Ah, you misunderstood me. The three healing classes do suffer from lower vit when compared to similar classes. Paladin has 40 vit versus 75 vit, Necromancer with 30 vit to 40 vit, and Priest with 40 vit to… 75? I guess the Priest is least affected by this as he is on par with the majority of ranged classes.
I dunno about this to be honest. Like I said, I like it a lot, but another flaw that I failed to mention is that Vit is still be worthless if healing classes aren’t around, which defeats its entire purpose.
I still disagree with max vitality, right now, being significant enough during even prolonged exposure to pet stasis. I’ll use the encore as an example as it is a dungeon I’ve solo’d very recently. Due to how it is near impossible to not be pet stasised to deal damage, I found myself simply backing off, waiting for the debuff to run out, letting my pet heal me back up, and going back in. Vitality had no impact on that fight whatsoever.
As a result of this discussion I am willing to say that what @Nevov suggested is the best course of action. Simply add the pet stasis debuff in as many places that see fit. The more indirect nerfs to pets, the more useful Vitality and potions are. Even so, I still believe that the regen from Vit isn’t good enough when an unmaxed character is compared to a maxed character. I’m positive that a .25 HP/sec per vit will make the difference needed.
What about % of max health scaling for vit or % of missing health.
When do you want to heal?
–> when you are low
%of missing health heal has also the benefit for newer players to heal a bit faster and scales through leveling and flat health items, but if you have a pet your missing health wont be mutch so the healing you get isnt mutch so it makes life of a new player a bit easier without really messing with the higher lvl players.
–> risks: if not balanced properly this could be disastrous
Just as a historical point, with you mentioning the 40-75 difference between classes, WS buffed the vit heal rate in June 2012, it was in fact doubled during a rework/balance, so when talking of a priest/paladin/etc having 40, that is approx equal to the “older max vit” stat of 75, the three classes with higher than 40 received that buff for class balancing, as back then those classes were less played.
But I would object to you saying vit was even worthless back then though, it was more significant a stat than now. To the point where there was even analysis done (wiki page: Def vs HP vs Vit) for the times that a vit ring was the best ring to wear, as going to ExaVit increased your heal rate by over 10% (more if unmaxed vit) - in the absence of a healer that was very noticeable, and HP pots weren’t available on demand, requiring preparation to collect them ahead of time.
(A vit pot also used to be the most “valuable” pot, trading for between 1 and 2 def, though partly due to the relative difficulty of abyss - funny to recall how that used to be such tougher content, and partly then, as now, vit is not as directly important to outright stop you dying, so usually a latter stat to max.)
Omg hi jaws, first saw you in game and now back on forums
Problem is with pets, not the stat. And you’re right: pet stasis is a blunt response to the OP state of pets as with things like stun immunity. They added in Silence (crappier Quiet) so perhaps they could do that for pets too and add that to more projectiles as Nevov suggested. We could also have pet healing scaled proportionally to maxed vit, so you’re getting the normal regen from the vit stat while 100% maxed vit = normal pet instead of a static scaling schematic (i.e. your pet will heal normally if you’re maxed 40 vit priest and maxed 75 vit knight).
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