UTs need to be changed


#12

It was never my intention to make it seem like I’m railing people or despising/hating on anyone who has top of the line gear or max exaltations. I’m simply trying to convey that I think it is severely flawed that the most effective way in playing and having the most possible fun in Realm is only achievable with the best, current items (thus, I rant about the whole elitist/meta concept and how I find it so aggravating). Additionally, the only thing that I “railed” against was how Deca has forced Realm’s player base to adopt a dominating elitist playstyle. Our choices are significantly hindered and limited when it comes to having the most enjoyable experience in Realm. For example, if you compare someone’s enjoyability with Void Blade to Enforcers, who do you think is gonna have a better or more enjoyable time. Now, I know I’m comparing a godlands white to an O3 white, but that’s exactly the point. We have a very marginalized, forced, and narrow region of play experience in Realm simply because of the way Deca has implemented newer, end-game content.

I also completely agree that it’s inevitable for every game to experience it’s small share of metas, regardless if it’s PVE or PVP. But Realm’s overwhelming dominant meta is clearly apparent when compared to a lot more games under that PVE umbrella. There shouldn’t be a dominant meta in any game. Everything should be fun or viable. Sure, there can be some degree of meta, but it shouldn’t so overwhelming to the point where there’s only one way to enjoy the game to it’s absolute max.

I guess this is just a “me thing” and don’t understand why people play PVE games competitively, but I welcome and acknowledge players who strive for that aspect of PVE titles. However, it’s important to realize that everyone’s number 1 priority, without even thinking about it, is to objectively have fun regardless if you’re playing it casually or competitively.

Nah, you’re not missing anything. I replied to someone else’s post earlier regarding a similar topic:

Anyways, what I think I was initially trying to argue in regards to the current title of the post, I’m pretty sure I was (or am) trying to convey that items like EP shouldn’t be only limited to dungeons like O3. It should have it’s own, uniquely implemented proc or stackable ability to add a bit of variety and offer players a possible option in additional “synergy” for their desired playstyle. Anything that’s “considered” a swap out now could be used as a main weapon, ability, armor, or ring if this concept were to make it (hypothetically) depending on what type of playstyle the person wants to pursue.


#13

Again, I apologize if the post seems like I posses a condescending manner, but I’m not personally attacking anyone who choses to play a forced playstyle. Like I’ve said multiple times:

Etc. The only issue I have with anyone is with how Deca has instilled a clearly dominant meta around Realm’s enjoyability.

As for this part:



The first “half” you’re talking about (which I encourage people to skip if they don’t want to read 9 paragraphs of buildup) has 1095 words. The last “half” that you’re claiming to be more than the first only has 683 words. If you don’t want to read it: DON’T READ IT and make me feel like an asshole for expressing how I feel towards the game.

Just curious, I don’t want to start an argument, but can you see how saying:

is a little insensitive and provoking?


#14

Sorry if it did

From my experience, usually when someone says you’ve written too long its more of a compliment/criticism

compliment in the way that you have a lot of interesting thoughts

and criticism in the way that you haven’t compressed those ideas

D: I didn’t mean to make you feel that

also cmon bruh past 500 words its basically the same. And a 683 word tl;dr is a bit too excessive

i do agree with your takes, but many won’t be convinced because of how much there is too unpack. only very dedicated people would bother reading, and those dedicated people are a small minority.


#15

Yeah, I getchu. I feel like I’m just starting to realize that Realm’s probably not the place to write an excessively long rant considering how simple and non-complex the game is. I just have a really hard time with my word economy and effectively/concisely conveying a simple-to-follow argument that’s not overwhelming. I’ll try my best to chip down any paragraphs/bits that have unnecessary words. I appreciate the feedback :slight_smile: Thank you.


#16

As Mark Twain once said, “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one .”


#17

U dont have to be offended by dragonRage the weeb. he gets roasted by meteors in o3.


#18

“Raphiel Ainsworth Shiraha”


#19

that’s mwean >:(


#20

What’s the problem with Raphiel Ainsworth Shiraha

Thats my name.


#21

Reading reopened the question in my mind: What is it that drives the elitist players (in general) to keep going? What is fun about having such a limited array of equipment to wear or dungeons to run?

I’ve never joined any of the well known Discords, and only briefly been a guest in a small handful of higher ranking guild Discords via invitation from former guildies. Those were… very different experiences, to say the least, but it didn’t help me get much closer to solving that mystery. Granted, what I’m going off are relatively small samples, but the people I observed seemed very bored, and often frustrated if things didn’t go precisely as planned. There was occasionally talk of how far they could go in trolling without getting caught/banned in a couple runs I was in, and nearly always this inferiority complex set to where watching others die was a form of entertainment!

Admittedly, there are times and situations where people getting cocky, bursts of deaths after certain comments, etc. can be funny, but this was more the type that was feeding off the suffering of others’ losses. Is that the only glimmer of entertainment for some elitists? The only thing I saw was maybe having the social aspect of VC conversations for some, but that’s not always an option for larger Discords.

The last point of heard from many word-of-mouth sources was that “obtaining the loot” was what made the game fun… not the content itself??? Does all this game amount to is a glorified loot box for some people? A lottery machine with extra steps? (I don’t understand what makes gambling fun either, to be honest. Logically far more lost than gained from that arena.)

Mayhaps addiction is the drive, or an obligation to stay after so much money has been sunk, with an unwillingness to let the game go in either case. I wouldn’t think that to be true for so many players, but, perhaps that assessment is incorrect (hopefully…)?

I am well aware of how shallow the game can be in its current state. I’ve been around enough people who quit the game who like to complain about that as one of the many problems with it, and to some small degree, I agree. But, I like watching the game grow, so I stick around. I’d personally rather see a better realm than the next set of white bags, but improving the old dungeons is a good step.

Sorry for that senseless rant. This topic reopened old mild pains I’ve had with a few games, not just this one. :frowning:


#22

Well, not only am I glad to see that there are other’s with similarly open-ended questions regarding the state of Realm’s enjoyment, but I’m also reassured to hear that there are other’s with that curiosity who’ve also seen first hand/observed a measurement or output to their possible questions. Anyways, I enjoyed reading your “senseless rant” (it wasn’t I genuinely enjoyed it) and the way you concisely manner your words.

And just one last thing (for transparency’s sake), again, I have nothing against the players who’ve been forcibly affixed/adopted to a clearly dominant meta that’s been instilled by the game Devs. Not only that, but it also seems like, from your observations, that even people with some of the best items in game have a hard time in actually enjoying it without the use of “3rd party” factors (such as voice calls or deaths of characters).

stop getting likes ur gonna ratio me


#23

It was interesting to read your thoughts about the power creep situation, and I agree with a lot of your points. I’m not sure exactly how RotMG could implement this system, and I don’t know if you’ve heard of the game before, but I think The Binding of Isaac does an incredible job at addressing an elitist mindset. This is due to the fact that even items that would normally be put in a low tier on a tier list can be great when combined with other items or used in certain situations. Now I know that it’s hard to compare a permadeath game to one that takes about an hour or so to complete a “run,” but I think there’s potential with item synergies in RotMG too, sort of like BoI has. And yes, many BoI players are always looking for items that increase DPS like brimstone, pentagram, etc., but even items that generally put a frown on your face when you see them have their uses with certain items/chars, or against particular enemies. Anyway I talked more about Isaac than RotMG (oops) but I also think Deca is going in the right direction with adding enchantments since there’s more than just DPS that can give a weapon/armor/etc. that extra edge that it might have been missing. Procs are another thing that I think they’re doing good with for the most part since it’s more than just stats, though I wish more of them would be about something other than taking a certain amount of damage for it to trigger.


#24

var crippling addiction = 100;
var loots = 0;
3. lumi is a very fun weapon to use
4. top dmg and epic gaming plays

and people do a bit of trolling by doing top dmg epic gaming plays with t9 staves and t3 robes, and ive seen people carry around t6 daggers and souls guidance

so its not really that limited, in fact in the right places its really chill

those are usually higher ranking ones
but most of the time we are joking around
and you know the drill; make fun of your friends and guildies as much as you can if they die
but they know you dont really mean it

thats just people being mean, guess your sample size was unlucky

usually ironic, but people can be like this
they want efficiency to get maximum loots, because thats what keeps them going.

its the thrill
and also for stuff like thicket you usually grind it after losing tenne somewhere else, so you really want it back
and usually people are giving simplified answers, im sure they enjoy doing the dungeon they are doing to an extent

human psychology is weird, but at the end of the day this game has been designed for you to keep on going and never stopping


#25

Yea no problem man. I think comparing other games flushed-out PVE games, which fill in the missing gaps that Realm has, to Rotmg is valuable because we can clearly see what Realm can improve on. And I completely agree; enhancements sound like a definite step in the right direction to add more spice and synergized fun to Realm’s current state (I just hope that enchantments won’t be the only way to express one’s seeked/desired playstyle).

And yes! If this concept were to hypothetically take place, I think more UTs with more reactive procs (regardless if they’re all just “taking damage” based) with add more flavor and variety too Realm’s play experience. But yea, I too hope that ideally they’d add more unique properties rather than just “when taking damage”/“when in combat”.


#26

As a fan of both the Wand of the Bulwark and the Staff of Extreme Prejudice, this hurts me.

All is forgiven :grinning:

That’s just because its easier on the brain to EP once or twice in a single bossfight instead of EPing constantly in and out of dungeons.

EP already promotes 2 kinds of playstyle: the staple one that gave birth to the word EPing and the one where you zigzag inbetween hordes of enemies, spraying bullets to many targets instead of one.

Problem is, very very few already explore those playstyles, so why bother adding more? I would argue for a change that supports those already preexisting paths.

What? Senseless? You gave us food for thought, which sparks further conversation while staying on topic and concise. This is what I like about Xaklor, so consider me your new simp :wink: :joy:

The problem, if there is one, stems more from the players than the game itself. Every way of playing leads to results, loot. But what does one enjoys more, doing big brain plays or the reward at the end? Each playstyle helps in getting one more than the other.

If someone enjoys getting loot, then why would they bother EPing nearly everything? Yes, it’ll someday get you more loot than you lose, but its very difficult and harsh on the brain. So they are naturally attracted to easier-but-more-effective options.

On the contrary, if they enjoy pulling high skilled plays, then they might go for a oneshotting build with Indomptable and Seal of the Battle God, then proceed to dodge the shit out of bullet hell bosses to land a single shot. Might not be the most efficient way of killing bosses, but at least they get to flex their dodging skills.

I think there are elites from both schools of thought.


#27

Dreamless made a post about rebalancing the UT’s, namely nerfing most O3 items.

We all might eventually fall into the circle of elitism.


#28

The biggest issue with going entirely into the idea of procs and just drenching everything in it is that the idea of Realm itself is to emulate something that is sort of like a retro, arcade-esqe game, beyond just the visuals. The reason it remained simple yet effective for so long is because it was playing into what it was trying to be, and even with complicated patterns a lot of the time it still fit that feeling.

By simply giving everything a proc, and not changing everything else to have a far more intense or modern touch, it defeats the purpose of why the game functioned as it did: it was a simple game made to be simple. While games do evolve over time, the amount of changes to a base game are so bizarre already that it’d work better to simply separate it into two properties like Runescape did. As such, many veteran players feel so alienated because it simply isn’t the same game at all anymore, and in many cases that’s not a good thing. Sanctuary is the closest thing to keeping the Retro, simplistic feel while also having more of a modern touch.

Though, having things able to be swapped out with one another much more - and as such, allow a lot more builds to be viable for different reasons - is something I’m not only on board with but am very adamant about. Not to say that something from early game should necessarily be better than something from endgame, but unless it’s a low difficulty cyan bag UT, there should at least be some reason to use it in a situation over something else, even if it’s as simple as a bit more range (and no, not 0.4 range, more like 1 or more) for a big loss of damage. Something to make endgame items still have an edge, but not completely throw out the existence of some items.

Hell, having procs isn’t the worst thing in the world either when they’re managed with care and not simply thrown onto something because it’s wacky. DECA isn’t giving the most variety with effects in the world though, outside of very small instances such as with Lab Robe, though that’s questionably balanced and doesn’t work as it should(you still need the original MP Cost worth of Mana to use the ability). I’m all for having a lot of variety in effects and even the way that certain items behave beyond just projectiles or the standard on-use effects…

…but they need to be fair and interesting. We don’t need 17 instances of On Hit effects that all do somewhat similar things, because that’s not variety. But more importantly, not everything needs an extravagant effect. Beauty in simplicity is alive and well, whether you believe it or not.

Also, I will specifically mention:

This sounds elitist as hell.


#29

They’ll get me and Stheno last.


#30

I completely agree that Realm’s appealing aesthetic of simplicity is probably the main reason all of us picked up the game in the first place. But, that shouldn’t be an excuse or justification to hinder/halt the game from “evolving” within its own boundaries of being a retro-esque title. I’m not suggesting the game to update their graphics to live action. I’m not even suggesting to implement anything that separates from its own derivation. I’m simply suggesting to implement more additive properties (that Deca has recently introduced to us) to unloved, one dimensional, unviable items to add a deeper and more sophisticated level of enjoyment, whether the item is just overall more fun or if it satiates a synergy that your imaginative playstyle provides.

The game won’t be unrecognizable if more items were more enjoyable within the game’s already set-and-bound limits. For example, did the game feel more alienating or controversial when Resu got reactive procs? What about Doku, or Esben Robe? Hell, what about even O3 whites like Horn, Cranium, or Diplo? No, like you said here:

Again, Deca evolved the game’s enjoyability within its own boundaries to make the game more enjoyable. However, the most fun and reactive procs shouldn’t only be limited to end-game dungeons like O3. Anything that a player can create, with enough given resources, should be fun (most importantly) and viable (within its according dungeon-to-difficulty UT ratio).

Anyways, in hindsight, I did not consider the state of the game or its hypothetical enjoyment if everything was drenched in reactive procs. I too wouldn’t want all UTs to have similar or identical reactive abilities, however I unclearly stated that any items that would receive new abilities would have to tie with the item’s theme:

If each current and future item in the game had it’s own solidified identify (theme), then hypothetically, no items should share identical reactive procs (sure, they can have the same functionality, as in they can proc the same way (on hit, when in combat, stackable, etc.), but the output of the proc should be vastly different due to the item’s according theme). If this isn’t the case, then there should be an overall item rebalance in general.

Additionally, I did not consider the possible exploits players could abuse based on these hypothetical additive properties. Like you said, I too wouldn’t acquiesce to the idea of having more “swappable” options, but I never intended on promoting that thought. The original name of the post was “UTs shouldn’t be situational”. With that title, I was trying to convey that UTs and according imaginative builds should be almost or mostly viable and shouldn’t warrant the idea of constantly swapping out your primary items (AKA your seeked/desired playstyle) for another, depending on the situation. In other words, I never thought of the idea where players within this hypothetical update would rather consider in sticking with Realm’s current state of UT usage (swap outs) and exploit these additional “viable” UTs than creating their own imaginative and fun playstyle. More specifically,

Of course, players will always have that option to swap their UTs, but it just shouldn’t be so relevant and constant when you’re given the option to make your own fun, viable build.

^ This.

Exactly. Although I may not immediately convey to your similar interests due to my inability to keep things brief, short, and concise, I completely agree with this statement. Specifically the “… but they need to be fair” part. Again, like I’ve unclearly said:

… I then proceed with possible suggestions to buff the unchanged, already powerful items to compete with whatever items which were given fun, new abilities from the same difficulty dungeons. Additionally, I also believe and promote the idea of simplicity, as long as it doesn’t impose on something’s future well-being and ability to grow.

And lastly, I think you accidentally misunderstood cuz of my poor wording and prior antecedents. The whole quote was:

What I was trying to say was that given the new hypothetical changes to whatever UTs, the unchanged and already powerful items such as coronation would become “obsolete” in a sense of fun when compared to it’s competing, newly changed same-difficulty-dungeon UTs. I only said:

in order to persuade how much more fun items could be if they had unique abilities when compared to “boring stat bonuses”, regardless if the stat bonuses are strong or weak.


#31

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