Why Are So Many Items Worthless to Feed?


#1

It’s a simple question, really. But after having it on my mind for a long while, I want to discuss it in more detail.

For starters, how many items can you look at in the game, and say: " Oh yeah, I might feed that to my pet. "? It’s probably not many.

There’s three major issues I’ve noticed that have caused a lot of items to be worthless to feed. Those being a general lack of feed power, the difficulty to obtain them, and their rarity. So I’ll be going into all three of those in detail. ( A lot of detail, cause I’m very wordy. You’ve been warned. ) As well as the biggest offenders that have all three issues, and what could potentially be done about this issue. Note that I do understand the concept of wanting to deter players from feeding certain items.

I wrote this thing in one big spree by the way, so there’s any point where I contradict myself, or just say something stupid. Please inform me.

( Note that using Enter to create separate lines seems to break collapsed sections, so bear with me on the lack of paragraphs in these. )


A General Lack of Feed Power

This issue is most noticeable in tiered items. Take Wine Cellar Tops for instance. The weapons have 450 feed power, the armors have 435 feed power, and the abilities have 380. When on Earth would you ever be in a position to feed one of these things? The feed power is so negligible that they’re likely not going to help any pet that’s past Uncommon. Not to mention if you have enough of these things to want to feed one in the first place, odds are you have a lot of items that are better to feed. The Lost Halls tops aren’t much better. Both sit at 650 feed power, and the Unbound Rings have a disgustingly low 325, which is even more worthless. The only people who would likely have a steady stack of these things probably have fifteen something 8/8s, countless UT items which are better to feed, and a pet that’s probably maxed, or reasonably close to Divine at least. Under no circumstances are these things actually useful to use as feed power. It’s not just the tops that are the offenders here though, it’s literally every single tiered item in the game. If you’re in a position where this kind of feed power is actually useful, why not just grind Mixlcoatls drops? The staff alone is worth 320 feed power, making it an incredibly easy to get, accessable, and useful item to feed. I have fond memories of grinding these things out to feed my common and uncommon pets to fuse back in my red star days. Why can’t other items be like this?


The Difficulty to Obtain Them

Endgame items are the biggest offenders here, without a doubt. And these also fall under the rarity issue, but we’re not quite there yet. The only endgame item I’d even consider feeding would be the Omnipotence Ring. And even then, I’d have to at least have a few spares to do such a thing. Most endgame items sit in the 1,000 to 1,500 feed power range. Which isn’t horrible, but it’s by no means good, either. The same argument applies here, how many of a certain item would you need to have to consider feeding it? And would it even be worth it to do so? Feeding prices aren’t cheap by the time you get a Legendary pet, and I’ve seen a lot of people who simply don’t have the fame to feed their pets. So now you’re stuck with the choice of keeping another spare of your item, or blowing the likely amount of either 350, or 1,000 fame to feed it. The worst part about this is how good most of these items really are, which makes their feed power even more useless. For just a few examples, Stinger is the only real dagger that pierces both enemies, and defense. In the same dagger. Hivemaster just offers even more DPS than tiered helmets, and grants Curse to Mystic-less groups. And I think you all know how good The Shatter’s rings are. And this isn’t the only issue endgame items have, which brings me to the third point.


Their Rarity

Their rarity, oh dear, their rarity. It shouldn’t come as any form of surprise that endgame whites are annoyingly rare. Even during events, these things can be a pain to acquire. I mean, heck. My account’s over seven years old, and I’ve only ever gotten one Shatters white. That’s hardly fair. But the fairness of their rarity isn’t the topic at hand here. It’s how you get rewarded for it. Getting the items by themselves generally makes the grind feel worth it. But that’s exactly the issue, the grind. It can take a good while to build a reasonable stack of endgame whites, and even then. How many people are going to feed such items? Practically nobody. Why would I feed my rare Magical Lodestone with 1,000 feed power, when I can grind the much more common Coral Bow that has 1,200? The Coral Bow itself is the biggest issue with whites, and their feed power. The problem isn’t that it’s bad, it’s that it’s good, and nothing else follows its example. Thessal is by no means difficult to defeat with just a few good people. And you can get an item that’s not only a really useful bow, but also has a feed power that’s high enough to be used. And at a respectable rarity. Now take the Void Entity. Literally the most difficult boss in the entire game. Capable of killing any player, no matter how strong, and no matter the group, easily. And how much feed power do its items have? 1,000 at worst, 1,500 at best. And boy howdy can they be rare. What’s the deal with this? Was the feed power made this abominably bad just to discourage us from ever thinking about feeding these items? If so, let me tell you. They did a good job at it, cause this is awful.


The Worst Offenders

Event Whites, and Shatters Whites. These two groups of items are without a doubt the worst offenders of this. Because they heavily embody all three major issues. Let’s start off with The Shatter’s whites. All three have 500 feed power. Are you kidding? Is this some kind of sick joke? As previously mentioned, this is practically worthless to any pet above Uncommon. I’d sooner toss one of these things than actually feed one if I had that many. There’s not even anything more to go into here, it’s just that bad. Now Event Whites. These have varied feed power, ranging from 500 at worst, to 1,300 at best. Again, is this some kind of sick joke? Only four out of thirteen event whites have a feed power in the quadruple digits. Being Ogmur at 1,000, Tablet at 1,100, Jugg at 1,250, and the Cloak at 1,300. That’s about 30% of event whites, and even then, this is awful feed power. Event whites are some of, if not the rarest items in the entire game. And easily can take the longest amount of time to obtain. And as such, should have feed power that really reflects that. Would you even feed the amazing event whites like Ogmur, if they only had feed power superior to an Ambrosia? I certainly wouldn’t, unless I somehow had quite a few extras. It’s just too rare. So, what? Are event whites just destined to never be fed? Well, that brings me to my next point about them. Their feed power should scale with their usability. While it’s somewhat like this already, I definitely wouldn’t put the Cloak of Bloody Surprises above Ogmur and Jugg. Everybody knows that getting a Ray Katana isn’t nearly as eventful as getting an Ogmur. Just cause it’s nowhere near as good. So there should definitely be a discrepancy in the feed power because of that. Even lesser event whites likely wouldn’t be fed despite the feed power, because they’re still rare, and usable. This is coming from someone who got four Kageboshis after they were made into event whites, by the way. If Kageboshis had say, 2,000 feed power. Would I have fed at least of them? Absolutely. The feed power event whites should have is by no means an easy number to uncover, but I believe that something can be done.


What Could Be Done

I personally think that Mixlcoatl’s Necro Set and Thessal’s Coral Bow are an example that should be followed by most, if not all items. As in, having enough feed power to where you’d specifically grind the items to feed them. Or enough that it’s a genuine option you consider once you have a duplicate or two. I mean, it’s not like this would be an issue. Pet food with good feed power gets handed out on the calendar all the time. So they’re clearly not uncomfortable giving us some feed power to work with. Why not a little more that we can work for ourselves? F2P pets are a serious pain once you get to the Legendary stage, even with the holy grail that Coral Bows are. Most people know that. Yet there’s such a huge power difference between Divines and Legendaries, and it’s heavily gated off by microtransactions. Giving us a little more to work with to grind to that spot would be really nice, honestly. I’m not quite sure where event whites and endgame items should sit, honestly. They definitely need to be high, event whites especially. But putting everything at a perfectly fitted level of feed power that puts them how I described would definitely take some thinking.


TLDR Version

Tiered items are completely worthless due to their low feed power. As well as their rarity and difficulty to obtain at higher tiers. Mixlcoatl’s items are just outright better to grind and use as feed instead if you really need it. Endgame items are too rare, difficult to obtain, and generally useful to justify feeding, even with duplicates. Especially Shatters rings. The Coral Bow sits atop a throne as the best renewable UT item to feed in the game. Due to its balance of feed power, difficulty to obtain, and rarity. Event whites also have far too little feed power for their absurd rarity, and likely won’t ever be fed with intent to boost your pet. Even with a significant boost. Just cause they’re too rare. Because of all that, all items should follow something similar to Mixlcoatl’s Set, or preferably the Coral Bow. As in, you grind them out specifically to feed, or feeding is a genuine option once you get a duplicate or two.



The Sky Sanctuary, an Endgame Dungeon by Sturky
#2

Looking at it, I really do question the feed power of certain items…
Like, how is a Ghostly Prism:
image
Have more feed power than:
Breastplate
image
Nil
image
Ritual
image
Hivemaster Helm
image
AND Ogmur
image

What a world to live in.


#3

Ogmur has 1K fp?

pet hungrily stares at my 2nd ogmur


#4

:eyes:
Well… um…

You could feed it a Seal Of Divine Favor instead!
image
:wink:


#5

Because Kabam wanted you to feed them pet food bought with gold, not items you obtained from playing the game. It’s a strictly pay to win oriented decision, nothing about the gameplay even crossed their minds. Deca is just following their lead.

Also dishonourable mention to Crystal Sword and its 400 feed power.


#6

But its unreleased!


#7

Let’s not forget the fact that all Shatts whites have 500 fp… including crown.

So many other UTs have more fp than that, it’s absolutely nuts. (a spectral armor has more feed, a spirit staff has more feed, even the lowly cring has more feed)

I’d really like a feed power overhaul so the feed powers can kind of mean something (and for a new player, maybe even be a rough guideline on rarity or value of an item!), rather than just kind of seeming like they were picked at absolute random with little rhyme or reason.

Also, I understand Deca still has to turn a profit at the end of the day, and pet food is a great way to do that, but for God’s sake they could throw the player a bone lol. I’m pretty sure upping the feed power of items that you could actually play for years and never have drop even once because of their sheer rarity isn’t going to break anyone’s bank.


#8

Why not farm labs and manors? Manor stuff give 500-700fp while lab whites can net you up to 1kfp. Sprites are also a pretty good option, since both the whites drop pretty consistently and are 500/750fp. You don’t need to feed legendary pets 1kfp, anything above 500 will do if you die often enough.

Buffing the feedpower of items isn’t a good idea either. For one, everyone and their grandmother will get divine pets in 1-2 years, and if everyone is at endgame what do you think will happen? There are enough people complaining that realm is “monotonous” and “stale”. Another thing that will happen is that people that did get their pets to divine f2p legitimately would be pretty bummed out that everyone else can claim “f2p divine” when they put in so much effort.


#9

And why shouldn’t player be able to experience the end game with luxurious pet abilities, after two years of playing? It might seem so inconsequential, but you never know when the game is going to die out. You shouldn’t plan out time tables based of the longevity of a game, but how much content there is to explore. This game, even with it’s sharp skill ceiling for some classes, and loads of dungeons and bosses, does not contain within itself enough content to fill the breadth of that many weeks.

I understand why Kabam has made it so difficult, it’s because of their economic interests, but in a fair F2P model, the time spent should not outweigh the time that could have otherwise payed for the pet abilities in question, hundreds of times over. It can be skewed fairly, so that P2W is incentivised, but currently realm’s pet system is not fairly balanced as F2P. The amount of hours, and time, is gargantuan compared to the high cost of a maxed divine. You can easily spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on your pet, but that will dwarf in effort to the time spent by a F2P.

Let’s use an set value for the cost of a 100/100/XXX divine pet, if you used the most cost effective food until ambrosia.
Scenario A ~= $1,150.00
If you worked minimum wage in the US at $7.25 an hour, and got back $5.80 an hour (after taxes), it would take you about 198 hours. That’s about ten weeks part time, and five weeks full time.

Let’s use an set value for the cost of a 100/100/100 divine pet, if you used the most cost effective food until ambrosia.
Scenario B = $2,261.79 ~= $2,260.00
If you worked minimum wage in the US at $7.25 an hour, and got back $5.80 an hour (after taxes), it would take you about 390 hours. That’s about twenty weeks part time, and ten weeks full time.

Now, to incentivise the cost of this over time, they’ve made F2P very time consuming. This model isn’t wrong, if treated fairly. However, the majority of this playerbase do not work. They do not know the value of money, they only know how arduous F2P is. In what I deem ‘fair’, as my opinion, F2P models can range from 1.1x the value of money, to 10x the value of money, but higher than really starts to put a strain on the player.

So, currently, it takes a fuckton of hours to get scenario A F2P. and an ineffable amount of hours to reach scenario B F2P.

I don’t know about you, but a fuckton of hours is more than 10x five weeks of full time work.

Infact, a factor of 10x, for scenario A, is 2 years of part time work, or 1 year of full time work. Which is why 1-2 years should be a respectable higher end resting point for pet feeding progression.


#10

A good point, but let me point out that:

  • A maxed rare pet is more than enough to do all content in the game, there are multiple petless npe videos that can attest to this fact.

  • Too many people are complaining about how boring and stale the game as it is

  • The sole long-term goal that can be achieved in the game should not be easily accessible, since this would only worsen point #2


#11

I mean, in theory you don’t need a pet to do all the content in the game, pets just quicken the pace of the game. Modern day players don’t know the absolute euphoria max vitality on a knight felt, compared to the 40 vit max on most classes, when healing was mostly done through regeneration. Even in this new meta of pets, they aren’t needed explicitly to enjoy the end game content, as long as you’re skillful enough. They do however, provide a luxury as to allow for new strategies, prevent deaths, and provide the player a layer of laziness. Even if we use max rare pets as the base line, the relative time spent maxing it, compared to spending money, is insane.

This isn’t objective, and it’s not relative to the current discussion at hand.

Pet abilities should not be the sole long-term goal. Nor should it be easily accessible. Spending over 2000 hours in a game should warrant a maxed goal many times over. Especially when this goal in question, is not RNG based like UTs are. Point 2 is irrelevant to this conversation. I don’t play the game as much anymore because I’m too busy trying to put food on the table, I’m tired of playing on flash, when I know a rework is on the horizon, and my guild has died again. I am not bored of the game, and I don’t think the game is stale. I think, players who ONLY play realm, or players who are addicted to realm, are the ones who you see bringing up post 2.

Players who are genuinely done with the game, or tired, will simply leave the game. You might get a forum post in the farewell thread, or a mass foreversleep in godlands, a pet release, or a message to deca support, but they are not the vocal majority of point 2.


#12

I think the reason why might be that items were given higher feed power to compensate for being less useful, which is why a really good endgame ring like Bracer or Crown has less fp than Lab robe for example.

Then again, even using that logic the distribution is still a bit wonky and it still doesn’t change how ridiculous the difference between f2p feed and p2win feed is, especially now that skins and pet eggs have gotten massive nerfs to their fp.

What you don’t realize is that your 1-2 years timeframe is only achievable by seriously no-lifing it.

I agree that you don’t need pets to play, but it’s still bullshit to put a progression system in the game (that feels like the only real progression you’re doing since it persists after character deaths and has an impact on gameplay) that gives this much of an advantage to whales and costs this much to complete.

I don’t know man, dropping 2 grand on some shitty video game doesn’t exactly look like “knowing the value of money” to me.


#13

Maxing a rare pet doesn’t take much time at all, though, if you’re actually focused on maxing that rare pet. Maybe you confused rare with legendary?


#14

Just chiming in with a snippets of knowledge that might upset you.

The initial “choosing” of FP, wayyy back when pets were introduced, was based on item trade prices. (edit: UTs were not tradable when it came out. They used prices of the past for those.)

Later in the Kabam days, pretty much any new UT that was made didn’t get over 500FP.

Why? I recall KoalaP stating they want to be conservative with FP due to ‘duping’. These lower values were “temporary” until they worked out a fix.

Even though that sounds pretty small brain to me, given if you can dupe untrade-able UTs, you can dupe Ambrosia just as well. :man_shrugging:

I might get the actual quote and person wrong. Does someone else recall?

Temporary


I don’t mean to imply it’s all Kabams fault, though.

items are usually done last in the UGC progress, and often you take a copy of an existing item then modify the stats. Feedpower is sometimes forgotten to adjust while doing so.

For example, the ST trickster set;

The dagger has 900 (copy of Spirit Dagger)
The ring has 900 (copy of Ring of the Pyramid)
The armor has 435 … copy of Hydraskin armor…

Additionally, big D could probably revise FP for these legacy items without it being too much of a task I beelieve. Just list every UT and consider for each if the rarity and value in the current meta are represented properly in FP. Sounds like an easy task to delegate to the tester gang to discuss :wink:

This hasn’t happened yet but I wish it would’ve.


To close off, here’s some elevated level of suffering.

(and maybe a bit of an insight how loose K’bems’ grasp of the realm codebase was?)

EVERY. SINGLE. XML TAG.

has CapitalizedWordsForEachWordInTheName.
BagType, Potion, Sound.

feedPower? camelCasing.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH

way to break code conventions, arsehats


#15

Basicallly,
image


#16

Uts were actually soulbounded before pets went live on prod


#17

No, I explicitly mean max rare pets.
Take a look at this document for analysis:


#18

Does that mean it’s even worse and they looked at prices of UTS before they went soulbound?

jesus criminy


#19

Before we start calculating, let’s assume you, the person that wants to max a rare pet, knows about pet abilities, and what pet abilities you want. Let’s assume you’ve gotten a few eggs and finally find a pet with healing as the first ability, at minimum, because you like survivability. Let’s say that you’re good enough to do the basic mountain area dungeons (Snake Pit, Undead Lair, Sprite at a bare minimum, maybe throw in Enchanted Forest, as well as Hive and Jungle for dex/feed power) Now, let’s say you start with four common pets, to get base numbers. The second ability will always start at 15 once you get to uncommon, since it starts at half of the first ability, and we’re assuming you maxed all those first abilities (though it doesn’t really affect much other than a smidgen less fame cost). So that’s 2079x4, 13875x2, and 61148x1. We’ll just round up to 100000 for an even number, and to account for the feed power lost getting that last level maxed at each tier.
So that’s:
200 items with 500 feed power
~325 t11 weapons/t12 armors
334 t5 rings
or somewhere between 200 and 334 with a combination of those items and other 300+ feed power items.

Going with only feeding t11/t12/t5’s, because you want to get at least the minimum most bang for your ‘buck’, that would take just under 30000 fame, which isn’t really that much since you’ve been farming that fame while you farmed feed items/pots to trade for feed items. Even feeding items with less than 300 feed power to a common/uncommon pet (but not rare because, again, maximizing effectiveness of the agenda at hand) shouldn’t take it above 30000 fame.


#20

This may have been the case a few years ago, but now with much better fame gain options - lh, para, ice cave, fungal/crystal cavern boating (if its still a thing), along with the still stupid fame bonus system, fame is very easy to come by. Many people including myself buy incs en masse and feed them to legendaries and divines. You can easily get over 50 (total) fame per minute in lost halls and even more in fame dungeon events. If you are very active in playing fame character and doing fame dungeons, you can get a f2p divine in under a year. However, for the average player, I agree a lot of stuff is pretty useless, but as other have said, that makes sense to incentivise feeding actual pet food.
Edit: Also, I don’t agree that tiered item should have higher feedpower. Back in the day when they were rare and had value, sure, but now they are so common and worthless, they shouldn’t have high feedpower. I also think that tradeable stuff shouldn’t have more than 500 fp because of dupes/rwt etc.