Why Rogue needs a complete rework

#32

Other people have already said a lot of stuff, so I won’t.

Except for this: it’s “rogue”, not “rouge”.

Rouge is a type of makeup, or the color red if you speak French.

#33

Id argue to rework mystic

#34

Rogue’s fine, it was one of my final classes to white star as well because it never really clicked with me for the longest time. In my case the great revelation was that Rogue + Planewalker = invisible Trickster. Also, their damage is not bad. They can’t spam 600 damage shots like Warrior unless you have a cdirk, but even tiered daggers are pretty good in the scheme of things, and the range is high enough to be comfortable in most situations.
It also lets you do things like teleport to the opposite side of a boss from the main group, which makes it so that when the boss aggros onto the nearest player as usual the shots are fired away from you. Just be careful about trickster decoys and you’re good.

#35

Rushed as a rogue. Killed key enemies as a rogue. solo invisible around in godsland. It’s been a while since I last played rogue, but I remember it being one of my most reliable classes, along with a bone dagger (which has been outclassed by the stinger. Oof)

#36

I didn’t play rogue for almost 3 years now. Unless I’m doing a cult and group needs a rusher, there has never been a situation where I thought “Hey, I wish I was on a rogue right now”. For 98% of the situations where the rogue is good, there is another class who is even better there. I guess that applies to the assassin and maybe some other classes too, but at least they have more dps and are far more survivable, as its really easy to get yourself killed with a cloak.

I wouldn’t go so far to say it needs a complete rework, but its certainly not a good class.

#37

I think I’ll grab my own attempt at setting class DPS vs group play/utility:

(NB: this is without buffs taken into account, with a full tops set, vs a 0 defense enemy. obviously, archer and huntress go down a bit given a more realistic scenario, mystic, paladin, and warrior shoot up into the sky, etc.)

I personally find Rogue one of the worst team play classes, since you can’t effectively benefit the group besides…maybe doing some sort of rushy-sneaky things with far-away enemies…?
Ninja and Wizard at least have some good DPS going for 'em (topped with piercing for the former), and Sorcerer has some semblance of a clearing niche with the Scepter.

While I definitely agree that Rogue could be reworked or at least tweaked in some way to make it slightly more interesting, I don’t think a full rework is in order.

Also, Samurai is not boring! You all just find him boring >:C

#38

he’s just a wizard-sword class mashup with a new debuff :<
You can take out enemies that rush you like bees statues ice spheres as a rogue.

#39

I find it kinda absurd that rogue is at the bottom of the team play aspect here. Rushing makes the gameplay 100% easier for absolutely everyone in a dungeon. Rogue is easily higher than assassin on the team play factor.

#40

Wizard’s playstyle is spam spacebar and hit enemies like a

#41

That’s a fair point which I’d say deserves some elaboration.
While I agree that it makes dungeons slightly easier to complete thanks to the Rogue’s tremendous rushing capabilities, he contributes virtually nothing to a boss fight - which is what I focused maybe a bit too much on when deciding how high to place each class.

However, this rushing aspect becomes a bit less clear-cut when it comes to no-teleport dungeons. Sure, a Rogue could scan for enemy types and inform others, but they could also just decide “lol h*ck all a you” and simply rush to the end (this is part of why MBD was introduced).

Overall, I think it’s still a relatively minor aspect of the game, although I will say that it means Rogue gets bumped up to at least where Sin is now (who stays there thanks to utility UTs such as the Parasitic Concoction and the Crystal Fang’s Venom).

#42

suddenly you become a priest that can’t heal

TL;DR Rouge sucks; he’s weak and his ability is outclassed by just dodging, Deca please make him better.
[/quote]

I see, a ripper/bloody/tenne/crown rogue has the same dps as a prest.
Rogue isn’t supposed to be a group char, he is supposed to be a solo char and for that hes great. I love soloing dungeons halls etc. with him.

#43

Yes, not all of the set is good, but its that way with every set. Take a look at the wand from the Geb set. The ST’s aren’t supposed to be better per say, usually you have a crappy piece or two, a piece that’s good on a certain class, a piece that’s really good and different, and a piece that is more or less a wc top. So don’t judge a class by its st set, because that isn’t what makes the class.

While yes, it does have low dps, it also has a weapon that is becoming easier and easier to find high damage white/orange bag variants, that usually benefit from the rogues ability to get close. (examples: Cdirk, Toxin Tooth, Corruption Cutter.) And dps isn’t really rogues focus, muck like how it isn’t priests focus. Not every class is going to have insane dps, just like how not everything has the armor of the knight or hp of the warrior.

Invisibility is given to keep the playstyle of the rogue, it is meant for rushing past enemies and not being shot. Cloaks have cooldowns meaning that If you switch to another cloak such as the plainswalker, if it didn’t have invisibility, that’s a large gap in time where you can get hit. No one is going to use any UT cloaks except for rare swap outs then.

So, I understand you don’t like him, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a fun class, plenty have fun playing a class that feels safe, one that they can be assured that they wont die from rushing unless they mess up big time.

See, that’s what all the other UT/ST cloaks do: Plainswalker-teleport, Refraction-Decoy, Bloody Surprises-Att boost, Ghastly Drape-Paralyzed, Mirror Cloak- Absolutely trash, but its a meme item, Mad God-Armored, and Legacy Drape-Speedy.

But the rogue also then has its immense speed. While you mimic that with warrior, its not the same, and sense your invisible with rogue, you can easily feel comfortable with focusing ring and armor entirely on attack boosting.

With a lot of stuff in the game defense doesn’t actually matter, hp does instead. There is a lot of times where if your in a corner and getting shot at by the boss, that you cant just tank the shots, no matter your def, because it will lead to your death. Rogue just simply avoids that problem.

I agree with that, for example more easier to get UT stars for ninja, and I feel like we should get class specific mods, such as speedmod for cloaks, and other things.

The point of that is so that when he uncloaks that he is armored, giving the rogue more survivability until he cloaks again, much like how the mystic stasis’s and curses, so when stasis wears off, you deal double damage.

Look, I understand your argument here, I for one really dislike playing mystic. Its not that I don’t like her, I just don’t have fun when playing Mystic. This really shouldn’t be part of your argument though, because that has nothing to do with how the class is build, and all to do with your preferred playstyle.

I could not agree more. I don’t get the samurai hate, he is a ninja, with heavy armor, and a different ability. He’s basically just an adapted version of the best class. Maybe Im a little biased as he was my second 5 star, but I love playing samurai, and have a sakura wakizashi waiting in my vault for when I make a new one.

Look, so rogue isn’t supposed to be a team player. Of 15(16) classes, only 10(11) of them have a team ability, and only 4(5) of them are entirely focused on the player, not on dealing dps.

So, @GammaGamer is right, lets take a look at the rushing classes here. You have the rogue who makes it so enemies don’t shoot as he speeds by. You’ve got the Mystic, who stasis’s the enemies making it so they don’t attack as they rush by. And, you’ve got the Trickster, who makes it so enemies attack, something else as they rush by. Other classes can rush, just nowhere as well, and those who were built to rush are meant to do so by not getting hit.

Each class has their own purpose, and that brings weaknesses and strengths with it. Priest is meant to heal, necro is meant to heal less while damaging, and pally is heal over time while buffing. Archer and Huntress paralyze and slow, Knight stuns, and samurai grants exposed. (I couldn’t make my self type that Samurai exposes.) Wizard is build to deal massive damage, but you have to aim, Assassin to deal massive damage over time, Sorcerer to deal damage and wipe out hordes of enemies, and ninja to deal massive damage through shear dps and ability usage. The Mystic rushes through stasis, and debuffs, the Trickster rushes through decoy and teleports, and the Rogue rushes through invisibility with the added benefit of it targeting himself, not a specific group of enemies. Look, each class has its use, and though they might not look good, they are fine tuned to work well. The rogue is a hard class to get in to, but just because you aren’t into using the rgue doesn’t mean that we have to throw away all that fine tuning, or even some of it, to change it. The rogue is fine how it is, and the weaknesses are there to balance out the strengths.

#44

Thinking back, I guess I should’ve just put this on the unpopular opinions thread.

#45

You’ve got good points. I won’t deny the rogue is great at rushing and his ability of being undetected has to be balanced out with low dps. Thematically turning invisible is the rogue’s thing for sure but I don’t that means every single new cloak that will ever come out has to have it. How about a cloak that is useful in boss battles? Bloody helps but personally I never found it to be a swapout, more like an opportunist cloak to use (chest, avatar, thessal?) and that’s an event white. Compared to tablet, ogmur, jugg etc. its a lot more situational. Trying to explain my feelings on the rogue better though, I usually play this game for boss battles, dodging those shot patterns, knowing which ones to tank and mastering boss phases rather than rushing so for me, the rogue under that context is boring to play in since he becomes undetectable but that’s taking him out of his main element, rushing, so there’s that. I’m thinking about picking up the rogue again after how many people disagreed with me just to try him out under a new light. Does he need a rework? I admit, that was a bit much but I still mean it in some way. Maybe a tweak. An added alteration? I was thinking something like backstabbing or a “surprise attack” causing a debuff since he does go invisible.

#46

I like soloing stuff too, but I always remember playing as rouge, doing labs and the such and taking such a long while killing the boss. Other than his actual attack paired with tenne, crown etc, he doesn’t have anything else bolstering his dps aside from one of the most rare items in the game, bloody. Knight has shields, Trickster has ghostly and instability (rare sure but not an event white and its paired up with her larger dps) and warrior has berserk and they all can wear equipment that bolsters dps along side that all the while the rogue is around the third weakest character. Soloing in rushing? Yes. Soloing bosses? not so much. Even just doing bosses in a small group, the rogue’s invisibility is disrupted via other players so he’s less effective to play and under that context, a priest would much more useful.

#47

I say that since the rogue’s invisibility can be seen as cowardly since enemies literally can’t target you. Attacking from a distance is also a pussy move so fair enough. The difference is that i find the wizard more fun to play, but more for the reason that he’s more effective in boss battles than the rogue while also still having to dodge attacks so it feels like your constantly more active in the fight.

#48

Since I focus more on boss battles, I think the same. He’s good at rushing for sure, and it seems that’s where everyone is putting focus in his gameplay naturally (and when you start out in this game, going solo is much more consistent so rouge seems very inviting), but take him to a court of oryx dungeon or just straight to any boss fight then not so much. Yeah rework is exaggerate i admit.

#49

I assume by this you mean trickster? Because trickster wasn’t considered better than rogue until pets became a thing. For a new or even intermediate player (with a rare pet) I think rogue is probably easier to play and just better in general. Endgame, or legendary pet + trickster tarts looking more and more viable to the point where rogue is outclassed. But, I dunno, it’s been my experience that rogues die way less than tricksters so if you value staying alive that could factor in as well.

#50

I mean different classes, depending on the situation.

#51

cloak of the mad god