With the advent of IC/OoC, please rebalance 'instapop' design out of existing content

#1

Title.

Several enemies are designed to ‘sit on you’ and instantly kill you; punishing you for a single mistake, often unrealistically. Any seasoned player knows of many examples where this design ‘direction’ has been used to the detriment of the game’s quality. The game was broken by pets, and ‘instapop’ was used to break the game in a different way so there was symmetry in how the game was broken. Please seal both cracks.

Examples of dungeons where this is rife include the Mountain Temple (so many minions), Parasite Chambers (Painlings), Secluded Thicket (Tribesmen and Xolotl), Shatters (hm), and Lost Halls (oh boy), Sprite World (paralyzed Limon).

#2

Though I do support some of these changes, what does “IC/OoC” mean/stand for?

#3

the amount of people that don’t know that IC/OoC is in combat and out of combat surprises me

#4

Insta-pop though has been part of the game since before pets. Limon e.g. or the Rampage Cyborg + Green Potions in the Mad Lab, the traps in UDL. Many other enemies are lethal if you let them sit on you - there are a few in the Tomb for example.

So insta-pop did not arrive after or because of pets. It may seem more to happen more often now, but that’s as most other forms of damage can be shrugged off once your pets HP heal is high enough level. It also perhaps makes players more careless and so more likely to be caught out by a trap/potion/bot that insta-pops them.

#5

Are there actually any sources on how exactly (or at least kinda) does Deca want it to work? And is it guaranteed that this change will be added?

#6

rock dragon bat is another example that can instapop you, I would like to see such “repair” in the game, as I know many ppl have died to bats, traps, and other instakills, but I agree on @Skandling, this exists even before pets, and I would not be surprised if this is not reviewed at all

#7
#8

I think long ranged instakills that aren’t heavily telegraphed, like the green potion, are just cheap design and those ones should be removed, if the long ranged instakill takes so long to happen no one gets hit by it, and it contributes something to the fight other than cheap deaths (for example, getting directly hit by crystal flowers from the crystal cave boss is instadeath but it never happens), and obviously sitting on a boss or high damage enemy being instadeath is just inevitable. Then again, the entire Mad Lab is just annoyances and instapops rather than any semblance of difficulty, so the dungeon itself needs a rework anyways.

#9
  • There is a difference between enemies being dangerous if you go out of your way to sit on them and enemies that are designed around trying to jump on you and kill you instantly. My suggestion is not ‘make it so players can sit on enemies’.
  • The prevalance of instapop has massively increased with pets: enough for it to be subject to pet rebalancing, and I have addressed that in the post. I don’t agree that it ‘happens’ to be more prevalent now, it exists more frequently as a result of a conscious choice and even Deca themselves have mentioned that an incentive to implement IC/OoC is that it allows them to use less overdamage design in fights.
  • A problem existing in some form prior to pets does not mean it cannot be subject to rebalancing.
#10

I’ve seen this one now that I looked into it more, but from the looks of it (apart from beign fairly old) it has received very negative feedback. Has Deca adressed that?

#11

Cheap and poorly telegraphed describes these attempts at combat perfectly.

#12

"To be transparent, a while back we had week-long series of internal meetings and discussions to establish a cohesive vision for the game, something we could use as a reference for prioritization, major mechanics and rebalances, and the way we want to tackle various issues one by one to gradually improve on all fronts.

Obviously the fruits of this are not immediate, but they are nonetheless in motion. On the design side of things, much of this was recently shown off in the latest producer’s letter. This is especially relevant in the case of the In/Out-of-Combat system as a plan to rebalance pets and reduce what I believe most people would by far consider to be the most overpowered and “pay-to-win” element of Realm, an artifact from the peak Kabam era that has been tricky to work with until now.

Not to get too sidetracked from the main post, but an added benefit of this system is the way it influences design, as endgame bosses can remain challenging while being built around hectic, advanced shot patterns with more authentic bullet-hell gameplay, rather than relying on at least a few near-instakill attacks just to be able to do anything to a divine pet.

We are not backing down from OOC, even at the cost to ourselves. We just want to get it right due to the scope of its impact, which is why why it has taken so long. We are actively working on it, as we feel this is of huge importance to the game’s balance and ability to offer endgame challenges people desire."

#13

They are heavily telegraphed. Thrown by the one enemy you should be paying attention to, with a throw time of about a second and animation. Even when there are other enemies they are easy to see. They would be horribly unfair if you could not see them before they land, so much so that no-one would do Labs for fear of them. But as they are there’s nothing wrong with them.

#14

“Insta-pop” design in general can be quite flawed, but I think there are a few “good’” examples nonetheless.

Stated earlier, the Rampage Cyborg from the Mad Lab is a good way to handle an instapop, as it has a number of attributes that make it fair:

  • It’s notably communicated through them flashing bright red, alerting players “Hey! This enemy’s gonna do something, I should back out!”
  • The Cyborg remains stationary, meaning that you simply need to not go where it currently is;
  • Finally, it’s also vulnerable, meaning that with enough DPS, you can opt to kill the cyborg before it detonates.

Another example is the Abundant Shield from Limoz’ fight in the Lair of Draconis. These I still consider to be decent, although not perfect:
Unlike the Cyborg, they are neither vulnerable nor stationary. They do still telegraph their impending attack, flashing brightly and growing large - which I think should also be added if they enter their “minion spawn” detonation sequence.
What makes them fair is that:

  • their movement is simple and slow - just running backwards will be enough for them not to sit on you;
  • their explosion is quite weak; strong enough to still kill an unprepared, unmaxed character, perhaps, but by far not enough to take down a maxed one; however, they still hurt and inflict Sick, which deters said maxed players from sitting on them.

Now for some bad examples.
I think the least bad offender is the Green Potion, as it still shares the “stationary and vulnerable” trait of the Cyborg. However, it has more health compared to it, and in addition, it has no real way to tell when it’ll actually explode.

Conversely, the most notorious one is the Rock Dragon Bat. This one was basically designed to make them sit on you; either with Confused or Slowed, they can make it difficult to run away from them.
Not only that, they’re quite fast, and their explosion is virtually instant and even deadly.
Really hope it gets touched.

The final example I want to bring up is the Parasite Chambers’ Painling. This one, like the Cyborg, is vulnerable, and it actually explodes when it’s below half health.
However, it’s still got some Rock Dragon Bat issues:

  • moves fast;
  • deadly in damage;
  • explosion is instant.
    From what I could tell, though, they don’t try to fully explode on you…but even then, the fact that the walls of the dungeon can conceal them does not help at all.
#15

Lmao

#16

They still shouldn’t even exist since they contribute nothing to the fight but cheap deaths if you don’t pay attention for just a few secs, lag or TP at a wrong time.
The fact an attack was made for nothing but to instakill you if you misstep is just not a sign of good design.

#17

Thank you for well-written response.
While I agree with you that there is definitely gradation when it comes to instapop implementation, no single attack (occuring in a single tile) should kill you instantly from full health and being telegraphed is not an excuse for it.

  • Xolotl’s lightning strike is a good example of an attack that is well telegraphed, and hurts and debalitates.
  • I have done a lot of Parasite Chambers solos (I like the dungeon a lot), and I can assure you that painlings cannot be realistically killed before exploding even on a wizard. I have never achieved this feat despite trying.
  • Another commenter mentioned that the Mad Lab potion is justified. I don’t see how an attack setup taking 1 second justifies it killing a character outright from full health? By that logic, pretty much every unconventional attack in the game should kill you. Also, can we remind ourselves that this is a midgame dungeon?

I think that we have tunnel vision to the point that we are trying to study the ways bad design is not so bad, that we are forgetting that had it not existed in the first place we would have resented its introduction. Finding ways to justify it is a fruitless exercise no matter how much it may engage us intellectually and draws away from the real solution: fights should be engaging and should deal death through a well-paced framework of punishing several mistakes.

#18

The thought of DECA naming one of RotMG’s core combat mechanics something as unremarkable as IC/OoC surprises me.

And as a double reply to @Seelpit’s statement on fair and unfair insta-pop mechanics, I feel like the Green Potion in the Mad Lab could be a little more easy to catch. The majority of those who fall victim to them aren’t like, “Oh, I can obviously sit on them.” It’s more like they don’t see it and accidentally run into it (and is over 1,000 DMG really necessary?).

This is something that I definitely agree with, and also something that falls into the more general category in the Parasite Chambers. Basically any monster can bulldoze to the bloody floor as soon as you open up that one breakable wall. On an off-topic note, the Barrels also really need a rework.

Oh, and also this guy:

6

I love the Urgle compared to this thing, and there’s a very good reason why I never (and I swear I mean never) step into its setpiece nowadays. Other than the fact its sprite looks like someone failed at making a long row of dragon sushi, there is (no joke) no way to efficiently dodge this thing if you’re on a melee. One hug with the beast – instant death. Let’s not forget that all of his movements are extremely fast paced and completely unpredictable. But surely you can stun the Dragon’s segments, right? Sure, if the Knights were willing to the idea of getting bamboozled by one billion other segments.

DECA thinks that adding more insta-kill enemies makes the game “harder” when they have the potential of coming up a variety of unique shot patterns and enemy ideas.

#19

How has no one mentioned the mushroom berserker (giant green shroom) from fungal cavern? This one, during phase 1, sometimes does not telegraph its attack and can immediately lunge at players at mach 11 speed, instantly killing them. I’ve seen so many players walk into a room and whabam, green mushroom out of nowhere.

The nest blue soldier bee during rage phase is also another offender. If you encounter this thing for the very first time, blind, there is no indicator that it’ll suddenly do a hyperlight dash into your face. You’d see it glowing purple, staying relatively still and emitting a bunch of bullets for one second, then the next second it’s right on top of you.

It’s due to enemies like these that make me afraid to try new dungeons, as they are relatively unforgiving and excessively punishing to players who don’t know what to expect for their first run

#20

The fungal cavern has quite a few prime offenders. The yellow train, green mushroom and the absolutely broken spider can be incredibly unfair. The Crystal Cavern is just a nightmare of poorly telegraphed, spastic instadeath enemies everywhere. I would not take a character I spent time working on just to die to some bat that… died next to me?

I completely agree with you that this is huge turn off to people who want to try new content. I have veteran friends who are simply not interested in trying out much of the new content because of how much instapop elements are pervasive and they will probably lose a character instantly to something random without a real fight.