Arena Revamp


#1

The Arena.

Great idea, poor implementation, and I hope to shed a bit of my own insight on perhaps how to make it a bit less obsolete than it currently stands.

I applaud Deca’s commendable efforts in trying to re-instill a sense of purpose for the Arena again, but ultimately that’s just treating the symptom, not the problem.

###Current Problems

The Discrepancy Between Risk vs Reward
Yes, I intentionally chose the word risk. It just fits in thematically with the rest of the game so for the sake of consistency, I’m going to define risk [in this sense] as what you’re putting in.

If we were to describe the largest problem the Arena has, it would be that what you put in does not match what you get out of it.

“But Mr. UnicornSla, you can get life pots and incs out of it for fame, you don’t get that anywhere else in the game, right?”
“But Mr. UnicornSla, tomb keys are 250 gold but arena only costs 51. Mathematically speaking, you could get the 3 life from a tomb using 150 gold; isn’t that worth it?”

The above points would be valid… if they accounted for the time/effort required to get to the higher levels where the loot is at. On the other hand, tombs can be efficiently run with a group in under ten minutes, if you know what you’re doing. There is simply no reason to do the arena - there aren’t even arena-exclusive items save the effusions - when one can gain more loot through average godlands gameplay.

TL;DR The payoff you get from the Arena does not justify the time/effort you must put in.

2 The Disconnect Between Monotony and Difficulty

Both literally and figuratively, there is currently a disconnect between keeping the Arena challenging but not tedious.

In the literal sense, you literally DC during higher waves, hence why nobody has gotten to wave 60 yet. The very nature of RotMG dictates its capacity, and certainly limits the Arena physically in that sense. Why is this important? Obviously, the majority people who partake in the Arena don’t make it to such high waves. But by restricting competitive players on the premise of the game’s limitations, there will be an inevitable lack of interest. The Arena leaderboards had the right idea, in contrast to the then- corrupt (and now still) fame-based ‘legends’ - to recognize players for their skill - but faced a rather abject fate.

However, the main issue here isn’t DC’s. What the true problem, the fundamental problem with the Arena stems from, as MSellers puts it,

One of our team members thought it would be a good way for players to battle without us having to make more new content. Unfortunately it really didn’t work. It never made any significant revenue at all, and wasn’t played with very much.

However, I disagree with Mike here,

We also did some things (e.g. the Arena) that were mistakes or essentially wastes of time

and I believe with some revamping, the Arena doesn’t have to be wasted. It has potential.

That in itself, tells you that the Arena was thrown together impetuously for the sole purpose of money. What am I trying to get at? I’m not trying to play rhetoric here, but there is a fine delineation between challenging content and tedious but demanding content. The Arena arguably falls under the category of the latter, primarily because of how quickly it was made.

For starters, most of the enemies found are existing in game besides the firebomb-trio. While there’s nothing wrong with using preexisting content, the way higher waves mashes together ‘all-things-hard’ makes for an incoherent, chaotic mess. There’s no fun in that, no appreciation for a rigorous and judicious design process, when a spastic rock dragon frolics about while swarms of Ruthven-bats confuse the living daylights out of you as you attempt to tackle an armour-breaking Thessal, who apparently has an affair with Mr. Septavius the Volatile IV. All the while, you are thigh-deep in water.

Such fights become more about perseverance and less about tackling a skillfully-crafted battle. I guess this in itself is another type of gameplay but for the vast majority of us, it’s not all too appealing. RotMG at its heart is distinct for its ability to let players log-in, screw around for ten minutes and yet still feel satisfied for what they’ve accomplished.

3 The Disconnect Between the ‘1%’ and ‘99%’

Similarly, the current Arena discriminates against those with lower level pets, and the ‘Petless Gladiator Event’ was well-founded, in my opinion. That being said, to #MakeArenaGreatAgain so to speak, we must close that gap and allure players of every shape, size, colour etc.

Lower-level pet users are currently penalized for not having an OP pet: to the point where your average player will barely make it to ~wave 30. To reiterate the discrepancy between risk v. reward mentioned earlier, this further drives away ‘noobier’ players because they can’t even get the measly life/mana/inc.

Not to mention the broken weekly leaderboards; the average player, who can only dream of being on the leaderboards, will get nothing out of that immortally bugged system, where a fix could potentially reinvigorate the feeling of competitiveness.

Additionally there is a certain charm to playing solo… but there are also limitations. RotMG is first and foremost a co-op game, and the isolated nature of the Arena doesn’t quite fit [at least thematically] with the rest of the game. It’s that facet of cooperation, playing with other players, trying to impress them, to save them, to accomplish something with another, that holds the spark and life-force of this game. That’s why I love guilds, but also hate them for causing me such strife when actual need to be connect to life in the physical realm.

###Proposed Changes

Now that we’ve identified some problems, let’s talk about some solutions.

Guild/Coop Arena
Suggested a million time before (and probably another millions times to come), this is a great idea IMO. It, in a sense, addresses all of the problems identified. There could be both intra and inter guild competition, say a leaderboard specific to the guild. The only problem with this how to implement it tastefully and avoid the current problem of a lacklustre DPS wall/lag-fest.

Better Drops
You’re going to have to justify the risk v. reward if you’re gonna get anyone to do it. Even the LOD, so substandard in loot, has an appeal because at least there is a chance of getting something exclusive to that dungeon. Not to mention it take a hella’ less time. Perhaps some Arena exclusive skins (similar to gladiator skins, but not those), dyes, vanities or even UT.

Improved Leaderboards
Fix the current weekly leaderboards. Perhaps the top 3 each get a key or ambrosia, maybe for the monthly leaderboard. Make one for competitions between guilds and within a guild. To appeal to more people, have a petless option (or if Deca’s really up for #MakeTheArenaGreatAgain, a category for each pet-level) which could possibly be scaled down in difficulty and a separate leaderboard for it.

Wave Selection
This might sound OP, but is it really? Right now, the earlier levels are a joke and it’s a race against time, against the barriers of hardware. Thus wouldn’t it be reasonable that there are certain ‘checkpoints’ (i.e. easy, medium, hard) where people can start at? This also helps with the whole notion of tedious/time taken; while the nature of an Arena-style event means that it should take longer time than normal dungeons (e.g. haunted cemetary), it shouldn’t take people an hour to feel like they’ve accomplished something. It just goes against the philosophy of RotMG.

Remove Revives
Self-explanatory; they just seem so petty, a cash-grabber. That being said, however, a checkpoint system mentioned earlier could replace this, so players have a chance to restart their clients. Rankings should reflect the capability of the player, not of the machine.

Edit: Thanks @Legolegger for pointing that out, thought that the removal of revives was purely for the gladiator challenges.

Remove Water
I don’t like the water. I understand how it adds a layer of pressure with the time limit but I don’t like it. (no explanation, please hate)

Redesign of Wave Composition
I don’t have any specifics, but right now higher levels are lag-fests. To be fair, it does have some degree of mechanics (i.e. Arachna with the slow webs) but something more thought out would be nice. Hence why this is in General Discussion because I’m just a whiner.
@WunderWafe’s colosseum seems very intriguing, and the bosses could be integrated into the current Arena.

Spectator Mode: Credits to @Werbenja @Stupidity I’ve always looked at the lifeless pixels that watch the arena; why not have real people watch? A simple idea for implementation is that people could just enter and walk around the bleach areas, but not shoot or do anything. There is the problem of no-clipping thru the walls but it’d be cool nonetheless. Stupidity also suggested live ‘battles’, where multiple players compete with certain settings (i.e. petless, no HP pots, always slowed, melee only) and people can watch.

TL;DR: I suck at the Arena and I want it to be easier.

I’ve forgotten the rest of my ideas lol, I just frickin’ want to get this post out ;-;


DECA and Community Realistic Ideas
#2

This has been removed already. Thankfully.

I feel like the water is one of the better mechanics. It makes things more fast paced, and also harder at the higher waves.

In my personal opinion, the arena is an awesome place to test your skills without having to risk losing a character, and the rewards you get are a very nice bonus. I would like to see more enemies and enemy variety though, there are so many more monsters that could be lots of fun to fight. Honestly, I am just sick of having to fight constant Ruthvens and Arachnas. Things like Oryx, the tomb bosses and events are way more fun.

I also like your idea of having an inter-guild competition, would be very nice to have.


#3

Beautifuly stated.

One other thing I’d like to see is the possibility of watching other people in the arena, live.

#4

that would really give the arena feel, with spectators and all…

Nothing like it in game.


#5

Yes! When I think of an arena, I think of roman gladiators slaying beast after beast, with a crowd cheering and shouting.

#6

image that in realm…


#7

I’d rather my 50 pets cheering me on.


#8

Now imagine multiple arenas side by side which you could cheer for. Spectator mode competitions. Settings controlled by an arena master like petless, no HP pots, always slowed, melee only, etc…

… Also, you may want to find a link for your msellers quote. Fun fact: the experience I had with the arena was the biggest reason I left closed testing. Kinda wish I had kept my hat in that ring at the moment.


#9

Crossed out, thanks.

And that’s a fair opinion to have… just that it doesn’t apply to most of the realm players, hence why nobody uses it :confused:

Do you really enjoy the higher levels though? I find that it’s really just annoying more than anything else; while the tomb bosses themselves are a well-designed fight, the random addition of enemies detracts from that unified effect, in my opinion.

Great ideas, added and credited :slight_smile:

Thanks for the catch, I initially put [quote] to try to remind myself but that didn’t work…


It’s funny because my only justification for spending so much time on these rants is that I’m ‘improving my English literacy skills’. It’s actually working. Somewhat.


#10

Mr.UnicornSla, when I first tried out the arena I used my fame to get in, I was waiting for it to countdown, “3…2…” when all of the sudden I disconnected, I thought this was a mistake, so I tried it again with some more of my fame, “3…2…1…” I disconnected again. I then noticed that the fame I used was missing ;( The third and most likely last time I used the arena, was months ago, I made it to level 3 before disconnecting again, I also got myself one of those dex booting potions :I (forgot the name of it) t -t


#11

yeah it used to dc a lot, i heard they fixed the problem these days?


#12

That’s another good point, though I’m not sure if it’s still prevalent today.

At one point, people were complaining about mass DC’s such as the one you described. I’m pretty sure that Deca refunded those people since it was during one of the gladiator events, but I’m not sure about now.

This is where that ‘save your progress’ could also come into play; to prevent situations like this. Nobody wants to spend upwards of a few hours trying to haggle a spot on the leaderboards… just to DC because of something stupid.

The idea would be something along the lines of, “you don’t restart until you die. If you DC, you’ll just restart from the level you DC’d from.”


#13

Aye the disconnection issues have been fixed, I’m experiencing none even till wave 20-25.

I honestly use the current arena as training for bullet hell dodging and learning what my characters CAN and can’t tank.


#14

When you actually have the fame to do it ;-;

Actually you only have 500 fame lmao. Unless you use gold. P2w nurd.


#15

More story fun time.

When the arena was in development, every single tester complained about disconnects. We also discussed ways to modify the arena for better class balance. And we discussed ways to make it less monotonous and more rewarding. Finally, we tried to think of ways that the experience could be more streamlined. At the time even high levels could be ridiculously easy or very very difficult, entirely based on chance.

What we didn’t know is that this was not meant to be a full development process. They were trying to create something very quickly which would not require refocusing development resources.

It was an idea by one of the game masters who had run a few events with the players. One of our favorite things was for them to spawn a tomb, then spawn a bunch of enemies in the ancient room which you would not normally see together. So it was fun to see if you could fight several o2s at the same time or whatever. Anyway, this GM thought of the idea of recreating the experience for all the players and adding a layer of competition to the whole thing by making a leaderboard and so on. It really wasn’t a bad idea. He was expecting to run weekly events using the arena as a way to build excitement and also turn a profit just by reusing a bunch of existing content.

The reason it failed is because they drastically underestimated the development resources it would take to be engaging, fair, and meaningful. And they had already begun a pattern of completely ignoring the"vocal minority" of players on the forum, Reddit, and irc. Frankly they were convinced that we didn’t really understand the viewpoint of the vast majority of the players (especially in terms of what players want and will pay for/accept as paid content).

So the arena was rushed to prod, completely ignoring every piece of advice were gave them. Rogue immediately soared to the top of the leaderboards, and players everywhere complained about the disconnects, the monotony, and the lack of loot (sounds familiar?). Almost immediately people completely ignored the arena. The GM ran an arena event, but no one really cared. So they moved on to the next big thing, because they were still in a crunch to create something that would generate a ton of revenue in a short amount of time.

Frankly, if they had just solved the disconnect issue and completely ignored everything else, it probably would have been okay. But still, the videos of playing the arena for hours at a time look pretty boring. If at the end of every 5 or 10 waves you had the option of leaving the arena and coming back later (a key in your gift chest corresponding to the level for example), I bet it would have gained enough traction for them to put a little effort into figuring out the scaling of difficulty so it’s not a4 hour affair.

But there was just no time. To make it truly great would require a lot of real investment, but you can see the bones of what could have been.


#16

Another great example showing how horrible Kabam was. Let’s hope Deca never sinks this low.


#17

The time pressure water could stay but it has got to change. Currently it is 5 minutes until water starts rising. Wave 1? 5 minutes. Wave 100? 5 minutes. The ““water timer”” should be the sum of the time it estimates you to defeat a boss (per boss) + margin of error

For example Ruthven gets X seconds
Oryx gets Y seconds
Cprisoner gets Z seconds

A wave of all 3 is X Y Z seconds until water rises. Time per boss would need to be determined by testing.

Side from that boss combos make longer waves. Therefore, extra time which should be a*B where a is a factor and B is the wawe number

So the wave timer shouldnt be “300s” but instead

a*B+Boss1+Boss2 +(…) seconds

Might workt this thru more later gotta go


#18

Good stuff, enjoyed the story uncle stu :slight_smile:

Do you think it’s still viable to fix it, and what do you think should be the priorities for Arena fixes?

@Mrunibro Good idea, another great point. Only problem would be assigning the values of “XYZ” because that takes time, maybe just certain groups of bosses have a time value for simplicity?


#19

Well yeah? I spend fame like a fish.

And why the hell would I waste gold on the ARENA lol


#20

Sure, but some bosses really need some special extra time. O1 for example, pretty much guarantees water. It’s either ‘‘be a knight that perma stuns’’ or wet feet, because that guy has a lotta def&HP with the constant weakening.

Arachna could really use a load of bonus time as well. Of course the boss itself isn’t hard but as soon as you got some ruthven + dudes + arachna combo going you’re gonna spend a long time in there.

Now that im back on bitching about arena ill go to bomb devils

Bomb devils are bullcrap. We all know that. Although if discovered quickly they won’t ruin your arena THAT MUCH. But here’s what’s really flat out wrong about them:

They’re gonna be spawning bombs while inactive. Guy doesn’t care you dont know he exists and youre dealing with whatever. Quickly circling the arena is the answer but if he’s on the opposite corner he will have detonated at least one bomb.

And the bomb is the most broken part. It will spawn a lava tile. BUT. BY PURE CHANCE the bomb also spawns a flame. And that flame wanders around. And every tile it touches also becomes lava. Right here there’s RNG on RNG that can easily give you 10 lava tiles covering the edge of your arena. That shit isn’t cool.

Suggestion to change:

Chases you as soon as you get too close
Spawns bombs as soon as it starts chasing you
Bombs no longer do flames UNTIL you’ve taken too long.

With too long i dont mean a certain time treshold. If the amount of time between the last HP decrease is too long only then flames will come, because you may not activate it then leave it. Long as you’re fighting you don’t deserve to get 10 tiles permanently ruined by pure chance.

Lastly, the rewards are skewed. All this arena talk made me wanna do a run. So I did :^)

Wave 4: Dex effusion (well ok then)
Wave 16: Mana
Wave 22: Vit

I’m not sure about the wave numbers of the last two but mana was dropped before vit. Kinda odd.