Re slowed, and sick, and other nerfs like weak, dazed, armour break, quiet. They all work by zeroing a stat, and there are two arguments for doing it this way.
First the balance of the game. In O2’s chase phase e.g. you want everyone going the speed of O2. With armour break you want players to deal with having no DEF – the Nest boss’s armour break phase where you have to dodge. With sick if it’s unavoidable it again forces players to dodge.
The other reason is to challenge players. You have a Knight with 80 DEF? See how you cope with it zeroed by AB. You have a priest with who can chain heals? Try doing that when sick, or quieted. You have 80 SPD? Not when slowed you don’t.
Remember the Puri (and Geb tome) nerf? I think it’s precisely because of this. Players were using them to routinely nullify player nerfs, rendering many enemies ineffective, making it impossible to balance combat. Now though designers can use a nerf and be sure it affects almost everyone (except e.g. those who can self-purify, or TP to overcome being slowed)
I do not record videos. But as BaconSM mentioned: getting slowed in CD is common. And as I was slowed I could not run away fast enough (I could have nexus’ed, but it looked for me as the spider wasn’t directly sat on me - but I was wrong.)
I really like the new CD, just don’t like it as a melee (Acidified Assassin) - it’s very melee-unfriendly.
It takes strategy, much more than before where the only strategy was “break all the eggs first”. Now you need to choose their order more carefully, especially as their positions and which you do last varies.
It’s pretty easy with 'Sin though. he has only 40k HP, 10k x 4 phases, once for each egg you break to make it vulnerable. That’s about 10 poisons per phase, which you can lob from as far back as you need to.
For the eggs if one of the eggs near the door is the wrapped one I start with one at the far side, as that means I can reach the second egg easily between his sweeps of the room. That’s his scariest phase, the last two eggs are much easier once you know how he moves.
With slow, I agree that in most situations it would be better to have a percentage decrease. I would love it if that is what slow was, but then the current slow turned into a different debuff called “fight or flight” or something. It allows for more precise movement, dodging things that normally would not be possible.
I think the O2 chase phase of a perfect example of using slow well. He shoots dense shots at the nearest player, who will eventually have to weave between them or else get backed into a wall. The only reason it is possible (not necessarily easy) to do this without taking damage is because the slow effect allows for extreme precision.
I would love to see this utilized more often and have really intense bullet-hell phases of bosses where everyone is silenced and slowed. Most instances of slowed, though, I’d be fine replacing them with a percentage decrease.
With slow, a lot of people are arguing on why setting it to 0 is better than by percentage, and vice versa.
I definitely think that there should be 2 different debuffs. One that sets speed to 0, and one that decreases it by a %. This gives more variability in the game because it’s not always just slowed, and you don’t have to change existing phases to accommodate the changes to slowed, because another debuff exists to slow, but not to the degree of slowed.
I apply the same logic for sick. Makes sense that fucking dammah, a literal fucking endgame boss can create miasma strong enough to stop your character from healing, but stepping into poop water and it doing the same thing is kind of… weirdchamp.
An interesting idea. It deals with one of my points, as it still lets developers apply SPD=0 when its needed, but be less aggressive at other times.
It does bring its own problems though. It’s extra work designing, in particular going through existing dungeons adapting them to use it. It’s even worse for players who need to know not only which enemies inflict slow but which sort of slow, and need to learn how to play at three speeds, their normal speed and two sorts of slow.
And developers already have ways to moderate slow. They can vary how long it lasts, directly with a cooldown and indirectly by with tiles that slow covering different sized areas. You can have unavoidable slow shots but they are rare, normally there’s some way to avoid being slowed, at least for some classes.
Honestly this is kinda confusing mostly because I can’t tell if you’re talking about “walls” that look like “objects” or things that “block players” in general. Like Shatter’s walls or Tome’s towers etc.
However, I do think that Cem’s 6th could have destructable graves rather than actual blocking ones. We’ve seen them in Esben and I don’t think implementation of that sorts would be too bad.
I don’t have an opinion on this.
I do have a lot of opinion on this though.
Sewers is not only an annoying dungeon for later players, but it is absolutely BRUTAL for newer players.
There are 3 major reasons to why this Dungeon sucks.
Layout (Including Toxic Water)
Enemies
Significance to the game
Layout
Layout
Sewers, out of every dungeon has the most deceiving layout. It looks very open but all the room you have is basically 4 squares wide platforms. (Granted this is very generous as compared to old Sewers, but that doesn’t means that Sewers is a good dungeon.) While you always have access to crossing the sewer waters, it completely does not help at all.
Then you have the “Rushing Water”. The way its implemented is so annoying. Like if instead of the regular water/canal of water that we have platforms to avoid, they could make it rushing. But they just had to deticate an entire room to this really annoying gimmick. It wasn’t fun in sprite world, but at least it isn’t always 1 way. While yes Sewer’s tries to use walls and some platforms that you can stand on to protect you… The Mage throws 3D Bombs. Keep all of these in mind when I start talking about the enemies
Enemies
The Enemies
The main 4 enemies that cause problems. NOTE THAT I AM VIEWING THESE ENEMIES FROM A NEW AND CAUTIOUS PLAYER PERSPECTIVE
Not all the points I made here are suppose to be relatable for the more skilled.
Goblin Brute
480 total damage, charges at players and instantly kills or pulls out melee classes from the fight. Projectiles cover a huge portion of the map and travel quite far. I don’t really need to say much. Oh and GL if those things flank and target the ranged classes.
Goblin Sorceror
The silence fired from this enemy is honestly extremely annoying, especially if you’re in an area where you have to walk in sewer water or rushing water. The 3d bombs also end up scaring new players a lot since almost all 3d bombs prior to this has packed a punch. Medusa’s 150 bombs. Stheno’s 100. Oryx 1’s 220 and thats really about it. And then we have this little fucker shooting 50 bombs and its the most threatening looking but pathetic thing ever. The only thing that tops that is Rock Dragon’s laser beans looking like 400 damage shots when they do 150. Less than 1 orb from the Guard Pillars in Avatar.
Natural Slime god
Slow in a dungeon that already slows you with water. Do I need to say more?
Sewer Yellow Slime
Do you like being at a safe distance while contributing? Well now you can’t cos this little shit’s area denial it fires so fast that the dungeon literally made an enemy to block ranged classes from progressing. Actually basically any class cos no max def.
these 4 are the primary enemies that make Sewers so much more difficult. You can include the alligator as well but he isn’t enough of a threat for me to put it here. Enemies that almost no other dungeon prior has introduced “properly” and most of the time all of them just stack into 1 clusterfuck. Not to mention that THEY ARE NOT SLOWED BY WATER BUT WE ARE.
Significance to the Game
Significance to the Game
To understand, we first have to talk about how new players treat this dungeon along with the rest of the maxing process. The big problem is that in early-game. Defense is a REALLY IMPORTANT stat. Late-game and experienced players don’t need defense as much. They have spare WC Tops that automatically make things easier, they can dodge much better and they know what would kill them and what wouldn’t. New players on the other hand don’t have anything and they are as fragile as you can think of it. How many times have u seen a fresh 20 get popped by O2 not knowing that its out of their skill.
To Clarify, Speed IS the most important stat no matter what. But Defense ultimately makes the game easier by a lot for newer players. Defense is the most important stat outside of Speed. And it drops from the most hardest and annoying dungeon out of all 6 main stat dungeons. Granted Puppet is easily more annoying but A: It is not reconstructed and B: There are many alternatives to attack, it drops very often outside of Puppet and Manor is an alternative anyways.
And for those who say that “Sewers is worth it”. Look at Abyss. 1 Vitality for a dungeon that basically takes just as long as Sewers. Never gets T room, and Vitality isn’t even as important as defense early-game and for new players. Abyss is harder to rush but easier to clear. The enemy design are designed that its fair for both rang
ed and melee classes and even the lava isn’t even an issue. Its my personal favorite dungeon
In Comparison to the Abyss
Abyss has a layout is a lot more open.
Abyss has enemy types are carefully chosen to be a mixed of enemies that players can easily get used to.
Abyss is a really good gateway to learning in rotmg. Its by far the most fair dungeon in terms of dungeon design.
(Honestly if I missed something or at 1 point I derailed please tell me. I am not a forum person, I’m more of an active arguer so the moment I condense everything in 1 post like this and go so in depth I’m scared I might give off the wrong impressions/opinions and I’m also too tired to continue saying how bad Sewers still is. Its the only dungeon that got reconstructed that is 4/10 on my opinion. Sprite world being the second best at 5.5/10 for how annoying it is to run.)
Honestly from the few O3 runs I’ve done. Sick is quite brutal especially when you just want to take a breather.
…Just rush for yourself then? It clearly says that you don’t need to help of other players. Maybe for the epic dungeons but at the same time, you can still find those enemies that drop it and just not call it out. There are alternatives and if you don’t choose those alternatives then u just gotta live with it. Its gonna suck that shit like this happens but I think it is possible to somewhat help situation. Even though in my opinion this change is obsolete since it is your choice of calling out T. There could be a system where it marks the first place entering the room as “the discoverer” and give extra loot chances.
In my opinion, rushing does help in terms of maxing. I mean nobody here enjoys the process of maxing after the first time and if there’s someone good enough to skip everything it’ll be great. Eventually those people might even start getting good and rushing themselves.
High Contrast bullet colours would become quite problematic for O3 or LH where each colour represents something as compared to bullet hells. In bullet hell, a bullet is a bullet. In rotmg, a bullet can exist just to inflcit a status, a bullet can deal big boi damage. A bullet can do basically nothing. A bullet can be… weird. Just look at the shithole that is Tome’s bosses and you’ll see how stupid colours get. But yeah I have to admit. Gemsbok’s coins do fire some bright coloured gems which are outright hard to see along with the white background and Lecuoryx’s dark phase has dark purple shots along with a dark blue ground. So I have to agree with you on this.
With this I also want to add on about how messy fights can get and just “focus” in general. The vultures in Beisa are so hard to notice when there are 9 enemies shooting constant streams. And just visual representation in general. They do quite a good job in it with O3 where green shots indicate Sick etc. But I still think some of these can be further improved on
Honestly yeah. Ddocks has been buffed quite hard. All the enemies are like O3 standard but just hit less hard. Then theres the crab which are instant-nexuses for most people. Worst part is that its the epic dungeon for Speed and Dex… and its the HARDEST. I totally agree with you that Ddocks is stupidly hard as compared to Wlab.
I don’t really have an opinion on these 3. I don’t do Cdepths enough just cos of how hard the boss is compared to the rest of the dungeon. Priest falls under a weird spot for me because they don’t really play as significant of a role of healing unless you’re doing something as risky like lava walking (I guess?) and I don’t play Rogue like at all. The only one time was doing it for fun and when invisible a drunk firemage walked into me and shotgunned me. Best laugh I’ve had from a death from how stupid it was.
I feel like this thread might be better named “list of complaints I have because I am easily enraged”. most of these boil down “x is stupid”, “y shouldn’t happen”, and “I really hate z”.
objects: I don’t think they should be removed, but I do think they should block enemy movement as well since they can currently walk through them no problem. this removes any value they could offer as cover since most enemies move towards you.
slowed: no opinion. it only exists that way because all the og status debuffs are “set x to 0”.
sick: fundamentally there’s nothing wrong with it because it has the ability to force you to rethink your current approach by making every hit count against you. the problem is in its application, it isn’t ever used against you with that goal in mind. it’s simply slapped on anything that needs to suddenly be threatening. also the fact that you genuinely didn’t care about this extremely nasty debuff before the puri nerf says to me that the puri nerf was justified.
rushing: suppose there’s some person who lacks the experience and/or the stats to rush a dungeon. they’ve entered the dungeon first with the intent to clear it out. then you storm in, rush the dungeon, and nab the loot bonus for yourself because you rushed. now you’re the asshat. basically there’s no good system when you’ve got these kinds of players: if you reward “effort” then the people who are maxed out already will trump everyone else for loot, but if you don’t then you get the current situation. both involve assholes being assholes but at least this way newer people can still get something.
colors: now this one is valid, and an easy way to implement it would be to just add bright bullet borders. should require little to no effort.
priests: they are/were a major cornerstone of the “invincible dps mob” meta, which means that nerfs were both justified and entirely unwanted. another lose-lose scenario.
invisible: a leftover nerf from many years ago back when rogues were genuinely overpowered. this is actually related to why the quiet bombs in oryx’s castle are there in the first place, they were added along with this nerf to slow down people rushing all the way to the end and killing the guards before most people could catch up. this alone didn’t stop it because people learned to rush with other classes but it stopped rogues from doing so effortlessly. these days with hp scaling, dramatically more durable walls, mob mentality, and other significant meta shifts such a thing may not be as necessary anymore. this doesn’t justify it, just explains it. you did ask why.
sew/ddocks/cdepths: haven’t seen the reworks so I can’t say which way it leans, but ultimately it’s just another example of what needs to be done not being the same as what the players wanted. anything that requires effort will be ignored in favor of things that either don’t require effort or give better drops. lotta players think they care about skill and getting good at the game, but they really just care about those delicious reward chemicals your brain leaks out when it sees loot and they’ll maximize the the ability to feel it whenever they can. it’s been proven a bazillion times now you don’t need a raiding discord to beat LH, but the vast majority of players do it anyway because it’s faster and easier. more loot for less effort. what you’re describing sounds like more effort but the same loot as before, which no one in this environment likes even though it’s what the game needs to not be an alternative to sleeping pills.
And this is probably the sole complaint I have with the current state of the game’s player-base, and what’s pushed me to running in small groups or solo. It can even go farther than just the “not requiring effort” part sometimes; there are certain dungeons where people will do the exact same thing or travel the exact same path quite even having a reason why, and sometimes get upset if it’s questioned.
Forget the toxicity (which exists everywhere in gaming, even at some of the alarming levels you can see in Rotmg; you could get in legal trouble for saying what I’ve heard some people utter -.-), I feel like there’s far too many people turning a blind eye to addiction. Repetitive habits, gambling, getting bored, and more often than not, becoming a worse person because they’re bored so they can feel some stimulus from the reactions of others. There’s a reason I love hanging out with newbies.
yea, its annoying that that drops def is the one you want the most def for -_-, and tbh the slowing tiles just hurts me inside when I try to run through on low lvl chars. The stacked shots aren’t much of a problem, unless you’re rushing and hit a dead end. If you’re getting stack shotted from minions because of slowing tiles, then just clear the enemies before running through? its not hard, but I can relate since impatience makes you wanna run through without clearing.
That’s another point I often observe. Everyone stays in the starting room waiting for anyone rushing.
With my bard, currently, I do rush in that situations (if I feel I’m able to). But when I’am in alone, I do some statistics. The question occured to me, how much Base Fame you can earn by completly clearing the dungeon (the wiki is out-dated in experience-value of many enemies). As an example a Manor let my earn 24 Fame (24% xp bonus), a Snake Pit (without t rooms) 6 Fame, an Ancient Ruins 14 (2 trooms, 1 fame each, because you get the 1k xp twice in each t room), an UDL 16, and a Cursed Lib “only” 20 (completly cleared).
The Manor was without any t. It’s annoying bc I cannot handle getting confused, but there is so much fame in and some feed power st items (the st dagger does not exists, it’s just a rumor it would drop there xD).
And btw. I seem to be the only one who think the new Sewers is easier and faster to clear than the Abbys!?
Oh, neato! I’ve attempted some statistics with the dungeons before, and those numbers are pretty close to what I got. Some dungeons are bigger than others, but the average isn’t far off. Glad to see another working to figure it out!
I think new sewer is quite forgiving. If I am on a maxed character of any class I am comfortable rushing it. New abyss is definitely not like that! Melees or rogue, but definitely not robe classes.
As far as full-clearing goes, I also think Sew probably goes a bit faster. I also think it is easier to predict where you need to go for Sew, though, so that may play a part.
Same. The key is just keep moving as most things are slow, the few that move quickly do so in bursts so you easily outrun everything as long as you don’t get slowed. Shoot what you can as you go, which will help mostly if you need to double back because of a dead end.
Mmmmm idk about this one. While sew has a greater chance to be shorter and thus faster, the sheer amount of debuffs make sew more annoying and inconsistent to rush. Maybe I’m just spoiled by my pet.
But that being said sew is still more worth it because 1) it has 2 whites which are both half decent and 2) trooms are more common from my experience and the native slimes also drop the potion you come to the dungeon for.
Literally when you are Speedy then get Slowed… cancer.
This really reminded me that when I was the sole rusher (for 30+ other dudes) back in the Tomb event, I didn’t get a crap but in the next Tomb I went but didn’t rush the dungeon entirely, got white bags.
Taking your idea of:
I think it would be better if that criteria is met, the droprate is greatly increased.
I do agree with your proposal of nerfing Sicken but I disagree the part you said that Deca killed Puri. Old Puri was pretty OP and I say the new one NGL, demands dodging even more especially I didn’t touch Discord raiding until post-nerf.
I can rush Sew but sometime I can’t trust my laptop from ping lag. And by the time I recover from the lag… me would got clapped or yeeted to Nexus.
Kinda reminds me O3 goes Heaven + Cosmo combo. That crap is really scary.
I think you are refering to that Crab + Bilgewater’s now-bullet-hell boss fight.
Just get rid off the slowing web in the boss room and we’ll be good.
Yessssss. Recently, I decided to try Rogue again and getting Quieted is an absolute nightmare…
Excuse me, Puri is not a forge power.
As someone who uses post-nerfed Puri, the healing amount is around T6 and costing 10 less mana. Ten less mana may not be a lot, but it will make a difference when you are spamming that space bar on a max-MP build Priest.
…wait what was my argument about again
(Not a forum person, the moment I start typing forums I forget like half of my points.)
Sewers is definitely more worth is than Abyss. Both are around similar difficulties, yet Sewer is the more annoying and newbie unfriendly one. Sewers however, has the more vital stat (lol Vital, Vitality) for being so much more harder and annoying for new players where as Abyss has a significantly less vital stat that drops much less often for a dungeon that is easier to learn, yet has the same difficulty as Sewers.
Defense is a major vital stat when it comes to new players learning. Maxing defense easily makes Epic Dungeons and God Event Dungeons much more barrable and not 'I’ll die if I ever take more than 2 bullets". Imagine trying to learn a dungeon where you have to avoid shots like in Touhou where if u get hit you just fucking die. The patterns also get much harder which forces players to dodge better and eventually you might not even need defense. After losing a 6/8 Mystic and a 6/8 Huntress, I stopped really trying to get defense cos most of the dungeons I do don’t even require it that much. If you’re a melee class you’ll probably need it more. But I use most of my dodging skills to avoid them now. Basically, you need defense to train your dodging and to take on harder dungeons that both hit harder and have harder patterns.
