Lost Halls, Why It's Bad for the Game, and Possible Solutions

#86

Now you can get pbags from void runs!!

#87

DECA shouldn’t remove guaranteed pits as a whole, just reduce the amount of guaranteed pits…

#88

Greater atk/def potions as a guaranteed isn’t too bad of an idea, but would probably still have too big of an effect on the economy.

I would like for there to be some sort of guaranteed reward for basically completing what is intended to be one of the endgame dungeons/hardest dungeons in the game, other than the mark. However, it’s hard to think of what could fit the mark (no pun intended).
Guaranteed pots are out because there’s no real way to make a pot drop worth the time without causing economy issues. Tops are also out for similar reason.

While this doesn’t fix the getting a pbag issue, there was a suggestion brought up on the discord about having the life/mana pots when they do drop be greater life/greater mana pots instead. I liked that idea because it won’t break the economy to increase the gain like that, plus it’ll get more of those greater pots into the economy which would be healthier.

I’m not sure if the pbag issue can be fixed with the current state of the game because it’d be incredibly difficult to balance how hard Void especially is outside of pub halls, with how easy it is in a pub halls run. It’s really just the fact that pub halls just goes at it and managed to throw the balance of the dungeon out of whack (and it’s not really their fault either, they’re just doing what is optimal to do).

#89

Maybe like a “lost shard” that you can hand in at the tinkerer for a lh item?

#90

Not until a rework for fame comes about, which would make it worth collecting besides pet feed and hoping someone doesn’t off their super juiced character for the weekly leaderboard.

The real problem is why someone (in normal play) would consider running a Lost Halls without having their stats maxed to atleast 6/8. Perhaps a new kind of item is indeed required, but you can’t get mad over atk/def flooding the market. You could farm godlands in the same time it takes to run a Lost Halls and get just as many atk/def as if the Marble Colossus dropped GDefs or GAtks guarenteed.

But the trend of letting these huge raiding groups influence updates is what’s getting me worried. Its a double-edged sword to try to stop them, and its hard to find middle ground without ultimately forgetting normal players can find this dungeon in the realms.

My whole idea is to keep the drops the same, but make a soulbound kind of potion, perhaps some hybrids where its +5 HP/1 Def and +5 Mana/1 Atk, and some other mix ups for the Cultists. This would add some more interesting drops for further hard bosses in the future (Oryx 3 perhaps gets a potion that +1s all stats)

#91

Honestly, sometimes I go in realm LHs with buddies and do a cult. Now I don’t.

#92

Alright, I had a chance to actually do some runs, and here are my thoughts as of now:

  1. The lower player max is a good thing; it takes discords down a notch, and brings the number of people in a discord run just a little closer to the number of people in a realm run; obviously there is still a big difference between 5 people and 65 people, but it’s better than what it once was, and opens the way for potential future balancing changes which could make the dungeon more friendly for small groups.

  2. I continue to think that the not-guaranteed potion drops are good when you have discord runs; each run takes only 10-15 mins, and if you really want the pots that bad, run Tombs or OTs. No dungeon should have everything. The reward of ~100 fame and the chance at some of the best items is sufficient reward if you only take a matter of minutes to complete the run, imo. However, I do definitely agree with the points above that this will have a negative impact on small runs, especially those started in the realm. I think that DECA has done a good job with taking discord runs down a notch or two, but there still needs incentive for people to do them in uncoordinated groups.

With that last note in mind, I think there can still be improvements: maybe have guaranteed pot drops for up to 10 or so people, and have low additional pot drop rates for anyone past that? That way, those who join small groups have a good chance of getting mana and/or life, while those who join discord runs must accept that the price for efficiency will be a reduction in loot. Remember, DECA has upped the chance for good items with this update, and the fame from LH remains crazy-high as it is. If you want items, fame and pots, you might have to run a variety of dungeons and *gasp* actually play other parts of the game! I continue to firmly believe that no one encounter or dungeon in the game should provide a player with everything, and that we should have to diversify what we play rather than farm one dungeon all day, every day.

In short, the update is progress, but more tweaks should be made before it’s perfect; make it more rewarding for small groups!

#93

(I’m an introvert, so I often end up coming up with thoughts a few days after certain conversations/posts, so that’s why I keep bringing up random thoughts after the conversation hasn’t been going on for a few days.)

Every dungeon has a certain purpose, it seems. The Tutorial, obviously, helps introduce new players to the game’s mechanics. Dungeons like the Pirate Cave, Forest Maze and Spider Den build upon these skills and introduce new ones, familiarizing players with status effects, the importance of boss fights and the loot system, all while helping players to level up and get stronger. Godlands dungeons (and the godlands itself) challenge these skills and give players the pots they need to max, as well as more powerful items that they will need to move on to more dangerous content. Event bosses and their dungeons give even more powerful items, with the dungeons dropping the last pots a player will need to max their character. Oryx’s Castle serves as a transition point (and perhaps a kind of “weeding out” area) for players going from the Realm to the Oryx and Court of Oryx fights, which all give pretty good items that a player can use later on. After mastering all of these areas, a player is often maxed 8/8 and has the gear necessary to confront the hardest dungeon in the game: the Lost Halls.

With all of this considered, what is the purpose of the Lost Halls?

#94

I find it extremely distasteful to wait 10ish minutes to try and fail to get into a LHs because of the 65 player cap. Although tbh, this is more likely the fault of those running pub halls and their inability to workaround the 65 player cap, having like 20 or so ‘nitro boosters’ prioritized, leaving only 40ish regular players to get into each run.

The fact we can now get 0 from Void and MBC after running the dungeon for at least another 10-20 minutes is an extra kick in the face.

Edit; @Jimdafish has been ‘replying’ for an hour now. Looking forward to it.

#95

Sorry, had to take care of some irl stuff mid-post.

Okay, you make a fair point. But didn’t you also say,

?

I think a lot of the players who farmed Halls have no real reason to get these pots; many either don’t pick them up, or horde them by the hundreds on mules. At that point, as you said earlier in the same sentence,

This, I think, is true for a lot of players; they’d rather at least see themselves get something for the experience, even if that thing means nothing. So if this is removed, why would you run a Halls in the first place?

I think the best parallel to draw here is with Oryx; it takes a long time to close the realm, then you have to fight your way through the Castle, kill Oryx 1, then go to Oryx 2, fight him for a while and eventually get loot. Or not. Are players doing it for the pots? That is part of the draw, I suppose, but I think that many would consider taking 20 mins to get a def pot or two isn’t worth it (taking into account the time to kill Liches, then go to the Castle and fight your way through both Oryxes), especially when you could have just farmed the godlands briefly for the same reward. Why would you do this? I think that part of the reason is the fame that can be gained from doing so is at least decent, and there is the reward of WC tops (obviously less of a draw now, but it was the main draw of O2 before LH came out). LH now runs with a similar draw; you get a chance at the most powerful tiered items in the game, as well as some extremely powerful UTs.

I think the fame part deserves it’s own paragraph, and for a very important reason; it has been counted out of many people’s equation in these discussions. When you complete an MBC/Void run and get a couple marks, an atk and a def, that is not the only thing you are walking away with. You are also getting about 100 fame per run, which is pretty sizeable by most standards. If you take 10-20 mins to complete the run, that is 5-10 fame per minute, or one fame every 6-12 seconds. That’s about what fame trains were once at (exact numbers vary based on run size, efficiency and whether or not it is a full skip). Fail to take this into consideration, and you have neglected a significant part of the dungeon. You, Wilhuff, Destroyer of Parasites and Slayer of Mad Gods, should understand the importance of a high-fame dungeon.

So maybe this isn’t enough for you; maybe the fame isn’t worthwhile, maybe the equipment isn’t worth the time invested for the many runs it takes to get. If so, then I have devised an option that is available to all players, regardless of wealth, experience, or time they can give to the game:

The other option

Do something else. If you want the pots so bad, run Tombs, OTs and Sprite Worlds to get the pots you want so badly and trade as needed to get the desired pot type. Nobody is forcing you to run LHs, and I think it’s high time that everyone stopped being so dependent on one dungeon for everything. It’s an open-world game, and it ought to be played as one.

#96

To be honest, the main part that irritates me is the 65 player cap, which is still most likely Pub Halls’ fault for being unable to adapt to it, running their same old routines, keeping us waiting for 10 minutes before they start the run, and then most of us fail to get in because of the hard cap, so we already lost 10 minutes.

So even though LHs is a good source of fame, and I personally can live with getting 0 but plenty of fame, you’re not going to get that fame if you can’t get into the dungeon in the first place, and we still have to wait 10 minutes to attempt to get into the dungeon. I find the cap has resulted in more instances of waiting for nothing basically.

#97

I don’t know what runs you’ve been doing. The runs I’ve been in have started within 30 seconds afk check being closed.

#98

he means length of afk check, i assume

#99

Even the length of the afk checks are considerably less than 10 minutes, more like 1-2.

#100

i know. but thats the only thing i can think of

#101

You and I are running very different halls.

#102

I’m doing pub halls

#103

There are already a number of servers popping up which are advertising smaller LH runs. With any luck, one of those will be successful and provide an alternative to existing solutions.

That being said, I, like @Spixer, haven’t had too many troubles with long LH wait times, and my success rate with getting into LH runs has been at about 80%, so I’m satisfied with where things are now in that regard.

#104

You doing vet runs?

#105

This whole pub halls issue is stupid as I don’t see why you can’t just implement something to the bot so that the afk check automatically closes when there are 65 reactions or close to that. Saves time for everyone.