PT: Vital Combat & Exaltations


#547

I had only just started and had an uncommon, but I remember a lot of people complaining about it

I always just assumed they did it on purpose to test the community’s reaction to a direct pet nerf and then “fixed” it when it was overwhelming negative


#548

I figured the same back then (and still do today). It was especially interesting that maxed divines were apparently unaffected by the changes.


#549

Time to carry one life pot and drink it right before boss dies!
it’s a funny


#550

The issue is exactly what @isalea said though.

Retooling older bosses will take away from new game development.


#551

I’m just looking for changes that will:

  • Make early game more welcoming for new players
  • Reduce the inherent disparity between new and veteran players (not counting skill)
  • Have the game reward skill in a much greater way than it does now

I’m not especially attached to a particular method for doing this; I just want it to happen. A pet nerf seems like the best way, and IC/OoC is the only one that I have actually been able to test for myself.


#552

I’m not the only one who suspected that, then. I had a rare level pet back then; it took me a moment to realize something was up, but Even with the loss of healing, I just shrugged it off.

As for this:

I had read an old article speculating this, the conclusion of which boiled it down to a likely mathematical discrepancy in the coding. I don’t think that was done on purpose. I’ll see if I can find it.

Edit: I found the thread I was looking for. There were a few good speculations, but I liked Nevov’s stab at it:


#553

Scary how far back you went

What exactly are you implying there? - Book

You already said you went back and read the old stuff, I just didn’t realize how thorough you were. @XBookwyrmX

:wink::+1: -Book @Platformz


#554

I love IC/OC, but I am skeptical about the new HP changes. I think the group size they encourage is way too small. With the current formula vs new formula i get this graph


This is: Time to complete = HP / Group DPS
All factors are taken into account in this graph, an arbitrary group dps that is consistent between prod and testing, a monster w/ 75% HP in testing, buffs properly scaled, etc. (the shape of the graph does not change w/ increases to either HP or group DPS). For all HP and DPS values the most efficient group size will always be 10 players, and you are harshly punished for going over that value. In this example I used voids HP and an average group dps of 2k. A group of 10 will be able to complete the encounter in 14 seconds while 65 will take 50, over 3x as long (of course this time value makes a lot of perfect world assumptions and ignores time wasting phases, so it wont be 3x in reality, but its still maybe too much of a discrepency).

Math

If you are curious:

x = Number of players
HP = Base HP (400000 for graph)
avgDPS = Average dps of player in group (2000 for graph)

Prod:
T = (HP + .2HP * x) / (avgDPS * x)

Testing:
T = .75 * HP (1 + .01(x-1)^2) / (avgDPS * x)


#555

I think the main reason DECA decided to implement the exaltation is due to how stale the game is over the last few years. For me, personally, I have obtained all of my favourite white bags and it makes realm boring without any kind of visible progress or goal. Just think of it like a pet or some small stat bonuses that you can just gain just by normally playing. You don’t have to focus on grinding each of the endgame dungeons but you can just think of it as an addition to the loot, you don’t need to sacrifice anything for the sake of exaltation, you just need to play normally and there will be some progress. Currently, there are no reasons for me to run endgame dungeon such as nests and lost halls when I already have my whitebags, this might motivate someone like me to do the dungeon. I haven’t played in the last few months but this exaltation might bring me back. Having an endgame progesss is not to be achieved in a day or a week, just like the pet, many people were complaining about howmuch fame and feedpower you need to get a fully maxed divine pet. You need to spent countless hours to add a small progress on your pet but realistically speaking, you wont get it fully maxed out. I personally have a 90/90 divine pet but I don’t plan on going for 100/100 because I know my limits and I’m still happy with my pet. You don’t just see the end of all exaltation where you already get all +5 stats across all characters, you still get undeniable progress even when you have +2 stats on some character. You don’t need to get +5 if you don’t want to, +3 stats won’t be hard to pull off and you can aim for that if you don’t plan on grinding the hard way.


#556

Honestly, most people already saw the pet nerf incoming. It’s inevitable and fully broken. It’s been forecasted since its release. There was no way in hell the current pet is supposed to be in Rotmg. If you paid money to your pet without expecting some nerfs, you are a goddamn mad man. A fully maxed divine pet heals 90 hp per second, you can tank most endgame dungeons by sitting unless you got shotgunned to death. What does this mean? healing classes are useless for maxed divine pet users, hp pots are useless, vit and wis are useless, dodging is useless and you can roam around the middle of godlands without ever thinking you’ll be less than 70% hp. The pet thing motivates people to tank rather than dodge which was suppossed to be the whole point of the game, this is a bullet hell game.


#557

People will complain about the nerf because DECA era content is “balanced around max level pets”, as if having a divine doesn’t let you tank through without dodging any DECA era boss that isn’t the few constantly spamming sick and pet stasis, and the mheal spams items like puri and mseal that utterly destroy the meta. Sanctuary was not enough, i repeat Sanctuary was not enough to threaten divine pets on its’ own, they had to put sick and pet stasis on every other bullet there.


#558

Honestly, if they just nerf healing in larger groups, but let them do buttloads of DPS, I’m fine with it. The ideal should not be with only 10 people, that’s ridiculous. If 55+ people had the most DPS on average, but their healing was worse overall (like Priest healing being reduced based on more players), it’s more chaos and bloodshed since more people will die or Nexus. Fewer people in total make it slower but more manageable. With the proposed system, it’s just a fuck you to big groups, and the meta will be taking like 10 - 20 people to do dungeons instead. It’s an MMO for God’s sake, let big groups be good at something.


#559

You haven’t actually done the math then, these changes are disproportionately lenient to large groups and screw over ONLY mid sized groups tbh, because the split healing stops at around 14 people, making 65 player groups over 4x more healing effective on average than 15 player ones.


#560

…and this is why it’s justified for smaller groups to have that DPS increase!
Large groups benefit more from Priests since their healing power would far have stopped decreasing with their sheer size, thus allowing them to be more survivable than those faster, albeit smaller groups - which was the intent of the update: players can choose between small groups for faster, but less safe runs, or large groups for slower, but safer runs.
(Cause at the moment, large groups have both faster and safer runs…)


#561

Okay, I played on testing a bit over the weekend and my opinions are basically unchanged from this inital comment. I really want to hammer home that point I made about the status effect rework being bad. The cooldown = base cooldown + duration really screws over a lot of items that aren’t supposed to get shafted. I go into a lot of detail in the video below.

I recorded my play session with live commentary and trimmed it down to relevant stuff. It’s kind of long still so I don’t necessarily expect this to get watched, but here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-OTuwnvO9g


#562

The solution is not to make only small groups have faster and safer runs though. Which is exactly what these changes do.

If these changes happen they might as well reduce the dungeon cap to 25 as well.

And like I said before the “ivory tower” closed testers forget that most people actually don’t care about group size. They have goals and are willing to put up with large groups to achieve them.

Back when halls came out, I never cared about the size of the Lost Hall groups. I just wanted to do them. And discord was the only way that was happening.

I never cared about the size of the group doing an event chest dungeon. I just wanted to have a chance to get some character and pet skins. And discord was the only way that was happening.

I never cared about the size of the group during the “Little Notes to Heaven” campaign event. I just wanted to get enough notes to get rewards. And discord was the only way that was happening.

At the moment I don’t care about the size of the group doing Oryx 3. I just want to have a chance to complete him. And discord was the only way that was happening.

I’ve repeated this like 10 times, but steamroll is a symptom and not the underlying problem. Do people like safety in runs? Sure. However, the real reason steamroll groups have formed is because the players have felt pressured to organize into groups to complete events efficiently given limited resources.


#563

Will that not be avoided then if the most efficient groups will always be the smaller ones? If steamrolling happens because of the fact that players felt pressure to complete content in the most efficient manner, then small groups will naturally become the go to way to complete content the fastest due to the HP scaling changes, however I don’t think it will be the most safe way. With the changes made to tomes, HP splitting reaches its minimum at around 15~ people. This means that larger groups will still be able to efficiently stack healing, meaning they will overall be safer than smaller groups but they will still take longer.


#564

You can’t though. And it hasn’t been trivialized to that point (sorry for the late reply)


#565

Thought I accidentally clicked on the unpopular opinions thread when I read this hahaha. I was thinking the same thing, may actually start playing again if Deca has the cojones to push the updates through.


#566

Forgot to add this in previous comment – I encountered a few glitches in this play session that were caught in the footage I recorded. I’ll post timestamps here since the video (posted above) is long.

  • 00:43 – damage numbers did not display above my head upon taking damage. I’m not sure what caused it because it didn’t trigger totally consistently and I didn’t test it that much before fixing it by screwing with the video settings (as shown in the video). I would describe this as gamebreaking and if it hits prod that’s seriously bad news.

  • 01:46 – temporary stat buffs rendering inconsistently player-to-player. This is incredibly subtle and pretty unimportant, but it looks a little fuzzier over some players than others.

  • 03:34 – mp bar UI element doesn’t update properly when out of combat. I’m assuming the green and yellow up and down arrows on the UI indicate whether healing is reduced due to the vital combat, but the mp bar never updates to reflect out of combat status, it just stays flashing down forever. You can see this bug taking place throughout the entire video.

  • 06:06 – pet sprite delayed update. My pet came out of pet stasis but temporarily still retained the chicken sprite. I’m assuming this is due to the particular implementation of how the in-combat delay is programmed – disabling pets temporarily in some way prevents the sprite from updating as it should.

  • 31:50 – cult portal not rendering. I assume this is something to do with it being drawn on ground instead of being like other portals, but it’s peculiar since there are two other cult portals immediately next to this one that are rendering normally.

  • 33:58 – fame bar displayed as partially full despite having all class quests completed. This was throughout the session but I didn’t notice it until this point.

General feedback that isn’t directly a bug report about the testing build:

  • 16:59 seven minute long rant about the implementation of the status effect rebalance on enemies. TLDW: basically it should be based on how long the enemy has been afflicted instead of being measured from the end of the duration of the first instance (but this would necessitate a longer period, since it would have to allow for effects with long durations to still flex their entire duration – something like Ronin’s Wakizashi swings this somewhat; overall this would require the cooldown to be increased from 5 seconds to more like 8 probably for the cooldown to make sense in proportion).

  • I was also pretty against the tomes having a cooldown, but apparently that’s already going to be changed into a rapid consecutive-use mana penalty so I’m not going to spend too long talking about that aspect here. But what I will say is that I think consecutive mana penalties should be applied across the board to all abilities for all classes and that should be done instead of tying mana regeneration to vitality as is currently being done. Vitality should only affect health regeneration, not mana.

  • I could talk for hours on end about the quest portait/indicator popup in Exalt and how it frequently causes issues (in particular in-realm, but also in boss fights as shown in the video). I whine about it at several different points in this video. I could do a full writeup about my issues sometime if it would be read.