Well the only thing we disagree in the end is the Memento of the Warlord crest. I could argue that vquiver is situational too as you need to be point black to fully utilize. The ability still holds tremendous amount of dps for just 100 mp and have an alternative feature of +12 atk when you cant use the totem. Maybe at least change the mp cost to 120mp and remove the piercing/ignore def capabilities.
In my first read through I was quite liking the concept of the class, especially the sprites. I skimmed over the first part though and for whatever reason assumed the class used robes and had def maxed at 25. This seems like the perfect class to stick a robe on, there’s plenty of synergy, so I was surprised to read that it used Heavy armors instead. I’ll do my best to analyze the class and show you what I mean once I’m done.
The sprites vary enough from the Samurai and uses a unique color scheme, so I’d say that the default sprites are well done. My only issue with it is how dull the colors are.
I would have normally said the sprites look too good/different to be introduced as a tiered ability, but with the Samurai’s Wakizashi I can’t really complain about this. Overall, I’m a fan of the sprites and have zero issues with them.
My thoughts on this.
Totems shouldn’t have a max place distance, it can be less reliable/fun for the player when their totem isn’t placed where they wanted it, or if it isn’t placed at all. (Depending on what happens when attempting to place a totem beyond max distance.)
What I do think has the potential to be overpowered is the fact the totem is able to manifest instantly. This means the player is capable of maintaining totems with very little coordination. That is why I suggest it be treated like a poison/trap and be thrown. This makes the player have to think ahead before using their ability and prevents “totem chaining” from being done as easily.
Makes sense. The duration seems manageable considering how the ability should be used.
As a side note, I don’t think Crests should give a speed bonus. I see Crests as being similar to Seals. Doesn’t really make sense for it to give a speed bonus, let alone a bonus at all. This critique is mostly personal preference though, I couldn’t care less whether it has the bonus or not in the end considering how negligible it is.
My thoughts on this.
I like this. This and the totem have the same goal, reduce the damage the player takes, but both take a different route to accomplish this goal. I find that this makes the Crest reasonable, as it does not provide immense versatility as many other class concepts do.
My only request here is to make all tiered Crests have a consistent def boost range of 4 tiles (radius). Going off of the T6, 3 tiles of range is hard to maintain as another player. It has less range than the Marble Seal’s buff and the Shogun will be constantly moving when not hiding behind a totem. I find that this will be unreliable to other players for that reason, especially with the lower tiered Crests.
In addition, there are already a lot of attributes that scale with tier on the Crest. It would be more beneficial and less complicated to have the range stay at four tiles, similar to the Warrior’s Helm.
My thoughts on this.
I see a few problems with this. As a player, if I realized I was about to take shotgun and did not have any of the damage negated due to the .5 threshold for the secondary, I wouldn’t be too happy. It isn’t as reliable as the speedy boost is for the ninja, so I find that it would be less enjoyable as a result. I can sort of relate this to the Paladin’s HP boost. You press spacebar when you need it and it happens when you need it. If this occurred .5 seconds later then many players I intentionally buffed as a Paladin would have died or nexused from the situation they were in.
Another issue I see with it is using the secondary without a consequence. Like the Ninja’s star, the primary effect should activate regardless of how long spacebar was held, where it only takes remaining MP into account. This makes the ability require more skill than simply holding down spacebar as the player needs to think ahead. (Also makes it easier to code, but that’s not really a valid reason to oppose this mechanic.)
I think this is only fair. Spamming the totem would be problematic without a cooldown. Also, MP healing is the only thing that would really make the def boost over powered, so this is good. I’m also willing to say that 1.5 seconds is probably the perfect cooldown time, especially if the totems were ‘thrown’ as I suggest.
Now with all of this said, here is my argument as to why this class ought to be a Robe class.
In its current state, the Shogun plays too similar to a Knight. Not only do they rival the Knight when it comes to Def, but they are also capable of ‘blocking’ projectiles as a Knight would.
I think it’d make sense for the Shogun to be ‘squishy’ without their ability. It gives more reason to hide behind a totem when you know you can’t personally tank.
The Robe’s other stats would also have great synergy with the Crest. The max MP bonus from the robe makes up for the ~16 def lost by allowing the player to use the ability longer.
I also say “so what?” to the ability being able to be used slightly longer. A Paladin is already capable of perma buffing Max HP, Healing, and Damaging, which is far more powerful than even a permanent 28 def buff. The Crest on the other hand has a feature to prevent perma buffing Def, so I’d even go as far to say that the current MP drain is perfect when combined with this extra MP.
I don’t really care for the Att bonus on the Robe, but the Wis bonus on the other hand has some synergy with this ability. Due to totems having a Wis mod, I think it only makes sense for the class to use robes. They get that extra bonus to their totem and get extra MP Regen when not using their ability. (It’s negligible, but eh, it helps.) Also makes up for capping Wis at 60 instead of 75 too.
The default skin would also need to be changed if the Shogun were to use robes.
If the Katana were to host a Robe class, I think the Crest is the perfect compliment to it. Regardless, I enjoyed reading your idea and I can say that I was overall pleased with the effort you put into this.
I’m going to make a separate post later to review the non-tiered variants of the Crest.
I chose these colors directly from a depiction of the Shogun, as I am going for as much historical accuracy for the skins as I can, including the alternate skins, which is why most have a Japenese class name next to their names. Obviously the ability isn’t accurate, but that’s because it’s meant to be enchanted.
This historical accuracy also applies to your argument about why it should wear robes.
totems having max spawn distance and being made instantly is bad
I personally disagree. The intention is to restrict your playing field so you play more tactically, as with unlimited spawn distance, you can block a shotgun before it even exists while being in absolutely no risk of being hit, which is extremely powerful.
As for them popping up instantly, this is also made for playing tactically, but for a different reason. If you’re really close to being hit, you should be rewarded for being able to make the split second decision to place a totem directly in front of you to absorb the blast.
crests shouldn’t have speed bonus
I’ll consider this.
make tiered crest held effect have consistent range
I’m honestly conflicted on this, but considering it’s something added to (pserver name i won’t say), I can test things out with that. However, I’d probably make them around 3 if that were the case.
Overall, there were fair points here and there, but for the ones that were overall important, I made sure to have everything coordinated well so that it was kept on a fair playing field.
I do think the final katana class should have a robe.
With the st set should drop somewhere else: lod and mt already have st sets and the one in my shares 3/4 of the item types
So what should drop them:
Ummmm
Wlab and ddocks don’t have st’s but the sprites don’t fit
I don’t hmmmm
That’s fair but I think it’s more important to value how enjoyable a character is rather than to shoot for historical accuracy.
For example, archers using leather armor is a fantasy trope. They’d actually be wearing metal armors like chainmail or- (I realized I went off on a rant about how leather armor is nearly entirely a fantasy concept. Let’s not include that, lol.)
Anyway, I’d rather just say that Ninja makes no sense from a historical stand point, but they’re still fun to play c:
My thoughts
Regardless of the name of the class, regardless of the skin of the class, and regardless of just about anything else, your concept of the Crest would be absolutely perfect for a katana class that wears robes.
The only way you can sort of justify a robe class using a short range weapon like the Katana (nearly 4 tiles less than the staff) is by allowing them to avoid/reduce damage in some way.
This could have been a concept like ‘evasion’ but something like that has zero place in RotMG, in my opinion. (‘Evading’ projectiles while standing still is a horrible concept! >:v ) That’s why I think an ability that boosts max Def and is able to make walls to block projectiles is perfect for the katana’s robe class.
Many people suggest that a robe katana class needs to have a ranged ability, I find that absurd. Especially considering that the Ninja and Samurai already have a ranged ability despite having more defense than a robe class would have.
I suggest that ya reconsider my thoughts on the Crest being paired with the robe, even if it means going as far as renaming the class.
Also, you never did mention what will happen when you attempt to use your ability beyond the max range. (Or if ya did I missed it)
My thoughts
True, this functions similar to having no delay on the def boost effect too.
Anyway, I still think that the totems ought to be thought of as similar to traps, something ya plan ahead when using. At the moment I view the Crest’s primary and secondary effect to not ‘play’ different enough from each other. They both have an "in the moment/"spontaneous play style. Because of this, I see little reason for me to use both effects when I could just use one of them, aside from very situational circumstances.
Making one of these effects reward the player for thinking ahead would solve this. I’d somewhat compare this to a Ninja with the Midnight Star. You think ahead when ya want to paralyze, but when you need to ‘get out’ or ‘get in’ speedy is a spontaneous choice.
I noticed that the goal of both of these is still accomplished with the suggestions I proposed together, only backwards.
A totem spawn being delayed prevents players from blocking a shotgun as easily, but skilled players will still be able to pull it off.
Removing the delay on the Def boost will also reward the player for acting quickly by absorbing some of the blast.
The only real difference between the way it currently works and the way I suggest is that my way is objectively weaker. Totem spawns being delayed while being able to reduce only some of the damage taken (as opposed to all of the damage taken). If ya consider nerfing the ability this could be a way to do it while making it more fun to use.
Yeah, testing is really the only way to get this right. I dunno how many people you have testing this at once, but I’d imagine you’d need a reasonably sized group. I still think that 3 tiles for 24 def buff is nothing compared to a 112 HP buff with healing and damaging at 6.75 tiles. It’d even be fair for the def boost to have 7 tiles of range based on the Seal, but I’m not willing to argue for something like that.
If ya need more people for testing stuff, I wouldn’t mind helping with that. In fact, it’d allow me to give a proper review on the class. Don’t mention it here if ya consider it, just PM me.
I’m going to simply say now, rather than letting a huge argument keep going, that I’m never going to change this from a Katana/Heavy class, mainly because this class has existed for over a year, and I’m not going to suddenly just change its core function or its equips.
I opted for both. The historical accuracy is only for the visuals of the class, and of course, what it wears. That’s why the ability is the Crest anyways; it’s a key part of a Shogun’s design, and it can make for an interesting ability visually.
And, yes, while something like this could really work well for a Katana/Robe class, that’s something for someone else to try and make, as I’m very keen on keeping it in its original glory rather than betraying the entire point of the class that I made. Someone else suggested to change what it does, too, but I said no to them as well, as I’ve had the Shogun for far too long to do that now.
(Sidenote: Ninja is kinda piss. Doesn’t resemble a Ninja in the slightest, whilst all the other classes in the game function well while also being true to what they are. Samurai isn’t the best either, but it’s… a little bit better?)
Oh, my bad. It just places it at the maximum range. (Or, should, right now it doesn’t even let you place it, which is just an unintended effect.)
I’ve separated their uses for a very distinct reason: you have to choose which one you want in any given situation. While the Ninja has one transitioning to the other, for this class, the dynamic is that you have two separate effects that you can only use one of at a time. This drives you to make more tactical decisions rather than simply holding down the spacebar until you see too many shots to tank.
No offense to you as a person, but… the highlighted portion sounds awful. It has health for a reason, as it’s meant to be destructible, meaning that if too much damage is done to it, it breaks, leaving you a bit more open to any incoming damage. Same tactical approach mumbo jumbo from earlier.
Yeeaaaaaaah… that’d be extremely overpowered. The Seal is an immediate use, while the Defense boost is something that is constantly around you, even if it does cost a lot of MP to use over time. Such an amount of Defense, in a lot of situations, is a lot more valuable too, considering that reducing so much damage over multiple shots will save a lot more HP than you would’ve gained from a Seal in the first place.
It’s still just a little buggy at the moment, so you wouldn’t be getting a proper review either way. lmao
I dunno what you mean, this is a proper discussion :v
I’ll stop pushing then, I see why you would rather stick with Heavy.
Ah, I meant that it would function similar to the way I was proposing. I personally don’t care much for being able to only use one effect at a time, you’d only need one effect anyway, but I don’t see too much of a problem with this:
I’d have actually experience this in order to decide what would be more enjoyable though.
Not really sure what you meant here. If you were referring to the way I worded it “(as opposed to all the damage taken)” then I apologize cause I did make it seem like I misinterpreted the concept. What I really meant to say here was the totem is capable blocking all damage until it breaks, whereas the def boost is consistent throughout.
You neglected to mention the Healing and Damaging effects :v
The main reason why Paladin is considered over powered right now is because he’s able to give players buffer health while also replenishing their health over time, on top of a nutty damage boost.
Anyway, the Seal is able to heal a max of like 230 HP. It’ll take about 10 projectiles for the def boost to be better in regards to just that aspect. That doesn’t take into account the def cap and armor piercing shots though, which makes this that much less effective overall.
Regardless, I wasn’t suggesting to actually make it 7 tiles lol. 4 tiles is enough, honestly.
Having the Totems blocking damage outweighs Defense Boost in situations where there’s too much damage to sustain yourself, but has a glaring hole: piercing.
The Defense Boost, on the other hand, outweighs the Totems in situations where you’d gain enough Defense to where it isn’t a super high risk in the first place, but also has a glaring hole: armor piercing.
Both of these are intentional, and fits into the idea of choosing which one you’re going to use.
I was mainly referring to Health, as that was the biggest point of concern. (Health vs Defense is a big thing, even still.) Healing definitely plays a factor in everything, too, but it’s unfair to compare the two when they’re drastically different in most regards.
Also, I won’t need to cover
as it was explained just a little bit above.
Oh, I definitely didn’t think you were suggesting 7. That’s ludicrous. But 4 tiles is… a lot for something that’s super strong if used correctly(but more importantly, effectively).
It’s also half of the uniqueness behind Crest of the Titan.
Not sure how far away the totems rotate around the pillar, so depending on the distance the activated effect should be balanced with these stats. However, even if shots hit only two of the totems, they still have enough total HP to surpass a T6 while also having double the def. (1,440 UT vs 1,285 T6)
With this much bulkiness, having 5 less seconds than a T6 somewhat defeats the purpose of the effect. I like the shortened duration and higher MP cost, it lessens the amount of stuff that could be on your screen, so I’d suggest reducing both the totem health and the MP cost to work around that.
Here are some values that could work with the shorter duration without making the totems too weak and cheap to use, although you’d probably have to play around with it for something solid. Totem HP: 550 (+15 for every 5 Wisdom past 40) MP Cost: 120
The 18 def boost and 5 def bonus is fine, but I think the speed bonus should be decreased to -5 from -2. I recall the tiered Crests had a speed bonus which wouldn’t have been a noticeable difference, so having -5 speed instead could make this noticeable. (Also maintains the difference in speed before the speed bonus was removed from the tiered Crests)
I’d also suggest reducing the dex bonus to -5 for the same reason while increasing the dex boost to -10 to make up for this. This will result in the item having 2 more total dex, but I think that’s fair considering that the item will have 3 less dex whenever the held effect isn’t active.
The fame bonus, drop location, and bag type seems fine to me. I noticed that the UTs are missing feed power though, so you may want to consider including that.
Memento of the Warlord
It’s not explicitly stated, but because there is no health value I’ll assume it is indestructible and does not block any projectiles
I’ll compare this to a poison due to it functioning similar to one. (armor pierce + damage over time)
On its own, it’s expensive and unreliable versus moving targets. It would only make a notable difference if it were attacking a stationary/paralyzed target to guarantee damage, but I think
@JohnMH
This is where I left off when I expected to review it in a couple days. Dunno if these two are even done, I didn’t look at it since. I don’t remember exactly, but I’m guessing your opinion of the current state of RotMG had some influence on me suddenly not caring, or losing hope for the game, which in turn directly affected my care for the forums. Sorry for not providing a complete review, but I don’t think I want anything to do with the game anymore.
For forumers:
Only reason I’m saying this right now is because I remembered I said I would do this, then didn’t. That’s not like me, I don’t like empty promises.
If there is anything else I said I would do here on the forums, and hadn’t, then I’ll probably return to clear it up. Otherwise consider this my farewell. RotMG is no longer a game I love, whether it is because of where it is at now or because of me maturing, I don’t know, but I do know I can’t play or talk about it like I used to sadly.
