An honest, thoughtful discussion regarding UTs


where are the sts rarer then the UTs?


if you’re like me and have gone “professional merching”, trading up is a incredibly easy thing to do. I have turned a life pot to a decade in under an hour. I’ve spent hours just sitting in the trade server doing nothing other then merching up. To you, selling a jugg makes no sense. But to me, I see it as a way to quickly turn a massive profit and but back that jugg + more. BUT, most importantly have you hear of RWT. Duping wouldn’t be such a big issue without RWT. Now, you might argue that RWT isn’t that prevelant, which is absolutely true. But all it takes is one person why buys 1,000 juggs to drop the value of jugg to 10 life. Once more, look at the example of decades. They should be even rarer then Juggs because they only dropped for a short period of time and were difficult to obtain in the short period they did exist. But now, they cost 10 l
Look at some of those sites. You can buy like 8 decades for 10$


Dunno what they use. They probably did a lot of multiboxing when it was possible to get away with it. Certainly duping whenever it’s possible. But I don’t know it is now – there seems to be none of the disruption to the market you would expect, or to the game as exploits are triggered.

RWTers could be sitting on caches from these. They might be merching for them, with bots running trades that generate a surplus. They might be buying them off players. They would have to pay pitiful amounts to make a profit themselves, but there are probably people playing for fun who would be happy to make a few $ selling things they don’t need.


Don’t forget they’ve dropped from multiple chest events since, in the Shatters and the WC. I got one from a WC chest. Players who bought keys and did organised runs would have had far more chances to get Deca Rings than me.


I merch too, and I do admit, really anyone can just start doing it and turn a profit extremely quickly (there are many resources out there, prominently Realmeye, that make the whole thing 100x easier). It’s easy to do, and generally reliable, and UT’s wouldn’t be an exception to this, because as you say, they too would have their value drop simply because of those people selling them off.

That’s why I suggested a limit on UT’s sold and bought. Sure, you CAN still buy a Jugg, provided you had the right items. Let’s say it cost 8 Pyramids (just using these numbers as placeholders). There would be no cap on how many Pyramids you can get “normally”, and so if you farmed enough Tombs, well you’ve got yourself a Jugg, which I think is somewhat fair (see my Abysses to Ogmur argument). I think what many fear is someone who just sits around buying and selling, and merching up to that Jugg.

Naturally, if UT’s were no longer SB, the only thing worth enough to buy them (at first) would be other high value UT’s. And so, this person who just merches all day could buy enough Pyramids and get that Jugg. With a UT trading cap (which includes any UT’s bought or sold), you wouldn’t be able to get to that point, and I think this problem would solve itself.

As for your second point, I don’t really know the impacts of RWT personally, and I don’t know if it’s as evident as duping, for example. A good amount of people would be willing to sell off a Jugg for like 10 bucks, because even though that Jugg was rare, that 10$ is actual real live money, despite this not being allowed. I think the case with Decades is majorly because of duping, although yes, RWT did play a big hand in them being so damn cheap. The fact that the price of them have basically remained stagnant proves that they can just keep being multiplied, no matter how many are sold and lost due to deaths. So, even though some people may buy a bunch of them for hella $$$, the amount of Juggs in the world doesn’t go up. The price would remain stagnant at very high value. I personally cannot refer back to a time when duping didn’t exist and UT’s weren’t SB (a.k.a, the Wildshadow era; I started right at the end of it), but I’d be willing to guess that the economy was actually pretty stable and UT’s were fine the way they were (although there are more players = an influx of items, so this point is kind of mute).

As it stands right now, we don’t really know what would happen if UT’s were no longer SB. We can theorize, we can use examples, but there isn’t really much evidence or any hard cold numbers. And, like I said in my OG post, we cannot fairly compare UT’s to items in the past, nor try to really see what they’d do in the economy assuming duping was fixed. We know what happens to the value of items when duping does exist; we live in those times. But in a perfect world where all the nasty dupers are gone… then who knows. I just personally think that it wouldn’t be such a bad thing.


That does not follow at all. It could be that they are being lost, due to deaths, but the stock is so high that there is no danger they will run out. Again, when duping was possible, they would have been the obvious thing to stockpile as the most valuable item that can be trade. They also drop in game, from time to time from chests, so stocks can be replenished.

When duping is going on it tends to depress prices, as whoever can dupe is able to make as many as they want, pushing down the price. But there is no evidence of that, prices have been stable for a while.


look. as a person who has recently obtained an item i have wanted for ages (jugg) i would absolutely hate if they were tradeable.

it would mean my 7 month long hermit and sphinx grind would be just as meaningful as some dickhead who spend a few of hit rwt decas to get the item. when i see someone else with a jugg i know that it took a long time for them to get that, but if they were tradeable any rwt or bluestar could get one easily and i hate that


the thing is ironically, the reason juggs and other items are so rare is because UT weekend made them more available and kabam (or wildshadow im not too sure) lowered the rates.

where’s my jugg deca


This is only ostensibly true. In reality, the supply of these items (if we assume no duping) is already so limited that anyone who has it has either gotten lucky or paid an extreme amount for it. The argument that people buying these items don’t play the game doesn’t really make sense when they aren’t going to be getting it for free. Besides, ROTMG’s “true” core gameplay loop includes trading in addition to farming. It is, after all, a cross between a bullet hell and an MMO.


The wildshadow game economy before duping was widespread was ‘stable’, but for reasons that are no longer applicable. First of all, people have had longer to accumulate good gear and actually become very skilled at the game so powerful items are no longer as rare. It used to be that a gbow cost one speed pot (and this was a fairly typical trade) but now you might even have trouble giving a gbow away. With the new way we store hp and mp pots as well as the addition of pets, difficulty has overall gone down for much of the non-endgame content, so people have a much more stable base to the economy which brings down prices. Events that encourage grinding deflate the economy as well. Good luck selling a life for 8 def now. The addition of more end game content and sources for life pots has also made the economy more gentle… I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this, but the overall point is that the WS economy was actually pretty novel and functional before duping, but removing duping and even removing duped items would not save it. The game is simply too ‘easy’ now.


Here’s my tip:

Have a 10k + warrior and ask people to roast your set. When they mock you for not having a jugg say “jugg rare :(”
Then a hermit will spawn and you will get jugg.


This is assuming they have 1000 Juggs, that’s a lot of grinding. Though another question is, how much inventory do they have?


if the only dungeon you have to run to get everything you want is abysses, regardless of how difficult the dungeon that’s supposed to be dropping the rare items, then clearly you’re doing something wrong with your game. trading isn’t a part of the gameplay loop either, it wasn’t even a part of the game until people tried their hardest to trade with each other anyway, and then complained about getting scammed since drop trades are far from secure.

if you want an item that drops from dungeon X, you should have to do dungeon X. not dungeons Y, Z, A, C, T, and N.


But the thing, or at least my problem with your argument, is that the main reason (at least that I know of) that UT weekends closed in the first place was BECAUSE of duping. There were so many juggies going around and the truth is that they weren’t high value. I still have a couple sitting on an account whose password I forgot


My point was that due to duping, you can create a practically infinite amount of juggs from one jugg. You don’t need to actually farm them because there are ways to literally duplicate them. They don’t have to be all held on one account either. I don’t literally expect a single person to buy 1,000 but if 200 people buy, 24, you would have 4,000 additional juggs to the economy that only existed throught RWT. Those juggs WERE’NT EARNED. that’s the catch


Yes. But that shouldn’t stop them from being incredibly rare. Actually, if you truly think about it, many of the high value STs are worth considerably less then they should be, considering the amount of time and effort that one truly has to put in to obtain such an item and the fact that these items are actually incredibly good, some even outclassing their UTs. For example, I noted someone talking about trading up pyras for juggs and that UTs were the only thing that could truly be traded up but to a lot of people, the ring of decades and even the UBHP are actually better then a pyra is (unless you need that extra def like paladin or trickster) and pixie is generally considered to outclass demon blade. In fact, pixie is considered one of the best swords in the game and yet it’s valued at a mere 10L.
The truth is if you’re talking about pure number, there are truthfully probably more juggs earned then there have been decades simply because jugg has been around since the beginning of the game and decades came out last year, showed up in only a couple of events, and only was a permanet item for a few months. If decades are sitting at 10 life, I truthfully don’t believe that juggernaut will be much higher once the economy settles


Decades only came out last year but dropped from a dungeon. And unlike events which you can do but once a realm, if that, you can do as many dungeons as you like, subject only to someone being willing to buy the keys. Which they do in quantity, for raids where up to 100 players have three chances of getting it from the three bosses.

It’s dropped from multiple event chests since then. And was probably duped, as the most valuable tradeable item.


Okay so as the “most valuable item” changes, it’ll also be duped… What’s your argument?


lowest price I’ve seen is .45 per deca.


I think a solution to this is increasing the difficulty of events like Cubes and Hermits, and adding a pity timer to white bag drops. Make events an actual boss fight like they were supposed to be. Hell, add pity timers to all white bag drops. Want an omni? Well, finish 500 voids and you’re guaranteed one. Want a jugg? Slay 600 Hermits and you’ll get your sweet sweet helm.

UT trading is like using a knife to sharpen a pencil. Yeah, it might get the job done, but it fucking sucks, makes a mess, and you should’ve just done the smart thing and used a pencil sharpener instead.

ppe btw