One More Time (Updated)

#50

I don’t see a problem with that. It’s endgame for a reason, You worked hard to learn it, you deserve something that is cut above the rest.

#51

Yea, its kinda weird that Dreamless wants to nerf items such as centaur’s shielding and vesture that are strong in group play, yet advocating for dps stat buffs instead of status effect buffs for items like banner/nordic st gear, which would inadvertently make them stronger in group play -_-. Also I can agree that the suggeted pblast buffs would be wayyy too broken, judging how items like superior(yknow, one of the best staves in the game) thrive off low def over high def. I think the biggest issue with these proposed buffs/nerfs is that they looked at items at face value, and just assumed items were strong/weak, without realizing the downsides/upsides of that item.

also you put “Crown, Lumi, Glad Guard” instead of “Horn, Lumi, Glad Guard”

#52

Also I don’t really get the argument behind spelling spell. For Spelling Spell, the mana to damage ratio is high, but let’s not forget that this item is completely useless for enemies with def >=20, because since the damage is so low, you’re not really gonna be doing “HeLlA dAmAgE” as your average damage is around 55, and most enemies with >=20 have health in the thousands. Even if you’re perfect spell bombing, the 260-2600 damage you will be doing will be cut down significantly because of enemy def, making the spell a complete joke for most enemies, and almost all bosses.

#53

I agree with you and your previous post. Also yeah I wrote Crown and not Horn. I’m not very smart, if you haven’t already gathered that.

I really don’t want to say this, and I do feel kind of bad, and it sounds really rude and makes me look like a douche but I think that Dreamless is just out of touch with the game. The game that they played as a kid, and the game that it is now, are completely different. And it’s safe to say that a lot of us grew up with it and adapted to it and accepted it. I know that the game feels different and just emanates an overall different vibe than it did back then, but that’s just how far the game has gone in all that time. And I’m fine with that.

Back then, a god tier archer set was Dbow/Cbow, QoT/Elvish, Spectral Cloth, and like a UBHP or a Pyra, or for those who are lucky, Bracer or Crown. While crown is still a mainstay, everything else… is outclassed. I came from that time in the game. And I know that it was a fun time. But times change.

#54

That really reminded me about Pixel Gun. About 7 years ago, Prototype was the meta and now… it’s about Category Spam and which weapon can OHKO the best.

#55

Coming back to see this seriously reminds me why I never try to talk with people about the way I view things even after I’ve spent so long with the game and have seen its progress. Every time I voice my opinion on the state of things I always get this huge amount of flak, despite how much I put my reasoning into perspective, when I’ve spent a good chunk of my time around Realm crafting ideas and overall trying to contribute to the creative scene and overall giving more than just my two cents on things because I’d spent so long crafting things to be fair through all levels of play.

If people want to disagree with my takes on item balance, sure; but calling me out of touch when I’ve spent at least five years dealing with item balance doesn’t just sound rude. I wouldn’t be talking about these kinds of things if I didn’t have the experience with handling it myself to back up what I’m saying, because I’m not someone who flocks to the internet solely to complain about things I have no idea about.

If DECA wants to make a push for all of the things that they are, like making a lot of these strong items, then they’ve frankly been doing a pretty shit job at making the rest of the stuff in the game match up to the higher standards of it. Things like ROTF, while having a lot of stuff that’s absurdly broken compared to Prod, were scaled differently from the very beginning and as such, had a bit more of an excuse; whereas DECA has simply added things that are so far beyond the original design and balance of items, and has done nothing to make the rest of the items come near them. You cannot have it both ways if you want a fulfilling experience, and even after spending at least two years so far trying to perfectly craft things to be in an overall much more balanced state, I’m still fine-tuning it and quadruple checking every detail.

Also, to clarify, I’ve never stopped looking at a lot of the things that have been added or changed in this game. Since I left, I was still seeing what kinds of things were being changed, what new things were being added, and even once before checked in by playing just a bit without mentioning anything publicly; if I were even remotely interested in staying around back then I would’ve announced it again. However, I’d seen at face value that things were still not at all polished enough or even given proper thought and time for me to come back.

Rather than trying to make things fair in the early game (without relying on ridiculous proc effects) they were focused on strengthening things that came from endgame, and hell, even with the dungeon overhauls it still wasn’t enough to seriously change anything because at the end of the day the core issues weren’t really addressed: the gameplay doesn’t have enough variety. This is something that Sprite World at least adequately accomplished, so I wouldn’t say it’s farfetched that they could do the same with everything else.

And even then, they never even bothered to change Planewalker despite the fact they changed a good amount of other stuff like giving Snake Eye Ring a proc, and the fact the Invisible time is still that of Tier 6. They couldn’t even put that little smidgen of effort in when they did so with items that nobody was even thinking of in the first place? Their quality control and focus is so wildly all over the place that it personally irritates me, because I know for a fact that if they were really focused on quality, they’d take the time necessary to really tackle these issues or devise a system that would actually help in this regard. And no, it’s not too hard to make a system that would help, because someone made an entire Google Sheet by themselves in a week just for weapon balance.

If there’s one thing I can say for certain that I’ve learned from this thread, it’s that no matter how hard I try and argue a point while not just saying “this is bad” or “change this”, I’m the minority. The only real exception I’ve ever had in terms of complaints is my Farewell Thread post, and that’s only in some sections and because I was truly at my limit.

Best of luck in whatever ventures you people go through with, but I think its been made clear that even with how much perspective I have and how many points people agree with me on, I’m not all that welcome at the end of the day.

I won’t be returning again in any capacity. I’ve got things I want to apply my experience to, and if it’s not going to be taken well here, there isn’t any point.

#56

mate I’m sorry, but that’s what’s going to happen when you have an unpopular opinion. People will try to explain why you were wrong, and that’s just normal. What we were arguing about was that the items that you said were broken weren’t really all too broken, and your arguments for why those items were broken were missing key details about those specific items that are what make the item not nearly as strong/ not nearly as weak as you thought. I can agree that items should try to be more unique is the future, but the proposed buffs and nerfs feel really tone deaf to the current meta in realm

Again, while your ideas might seem good as a way to balance items that you feel are too strong, the proposed buffs and nerfs you gave were either too strong with the current meta (like with the nordic st gear, banner and pblast), or nerfing items that never needed a nerf in the first place (like with horn and lumi). Its difficult for players who understand the meta to think you aren’t tone deaf when you want to nerf items like vesture, which are very strong in group play, but also buff nordic st gear to give a dps stat buff, which would make those items very strong in group play.

section was deleted because of clarified information

I hope I’m not taking this stuff the wrong way, especially the last part, so please clarify if I got things wrong, but this is how I feel about your response as of now.

#57

Most of what I mentioned when I was talking about potential changes for items weren’t the end-all-be-ball, but more of a personal suggestion for the direction they should go in, or just mentioning what the issue with the item is in some circumstances. Of course off the top of my head I’m not going to have the best sort of idea of what to do, because nothing is going to be perfected if you just go off of what you get in your head from the beginning. If you really want an example of this, check just how massively changed my original Shogun concept is from where it is now. (Posts are all on here. I don’t even want to stick around on the site but it would be rude to not say something here.) Don’t take my immediate thoughts towards changing an item at face value, because in order for things to really be fleshed out, you need to round things out over time and with careful thought.

That being said, a lot of my thoughts about some items aren’t about any sort of meta, but rather about the overall design of items and the like. I don’t care about what would be considered meta unless it’s overwhelmingly obvious that it needs to be changed or removed entirely; what I do care about is having items that you can get earlier on in the game still having some meaning, and more than just a select few like Planewalker or Scholar’s Seal for instance. When you have items that cover so many purposes like those from Sanctuary, you’re removing the need for so many items, unless you’re either collecting or are doing something like a PPE where you have to achieve things on that specific character. That’s exactly how it feels especially for things like Crystal Sword, which has so many counters, including the newer sword from Ancient Ruins, a Godlands dungeon.

Also, I’ll specifically clarify something about this:

This wasn’t to say that I’m always correct, because always being correct is just completely impossible for anyone. This was me saying when it comes to arguing my point, I usually do so for good reason and try to back up what I’m saying as much as I can. My assessment of items being either too strong or weak is the thing I’m backing up, not some of the specific changes unless it’s something that’s easy enough to justify, such as Entropy Reactor’s Procs. To reiterate: don’t take my immediate thoughts towards changing an item at face value.

#58

I am not saying that your opinion is wrong. I do see that you want to have items that have multiple stats, but giving less bonuses (like how you wanted to rebalance Gladiator Guard) and making them equal to each other.

The issue is, nerfing items to make them equal to each other means there would be no reason to raid O3 anymore, even if you want that Life Exaltations. As I mentioned, I strongly believe buffing older UT/ST’s would be solve the endgame vs non-endgame issue.

I would buff Mercy to +12 Def and +8 Dex/Att to make a difference without nerfing its O3 cousin. Zaarvox itself is weak yes, but once you pair it with Amulet of Drakefyre, it can outstrip Glad Guard in terms of HP and a massive Speed bonus (definitely not DPS though).

I want to see it…

It’s fine that you are a minority, I am a minority in some way as well.

It’s no wonder that you said Kabam is better than Deca…

I myself had things to complain about but with reasons like you mentioned.

#59

The general idea of how I see balance is that everything should have some reason to use it regardless, though some things more-so than others. Items that infringe on the niche of others while being strictly better in almost every way is something I have the most issue with because even if it’s an endgame vs midgame, you’re still basically just replacing an item altogether. It’s the sort of thing I see with Bone Dagger vs Stinger, though even that has a bit of leniency due to it being a case of Cyan vs White and not White vs White.

Also, with something like Gladiator Guard vs Mercy’s Bane, it’s a fairly unfair comparison due to the fact that Mercy’s Bane is generally an actually balanced item, while Gladiator Guard is just a fairly OP version of it without many - if any - drawbacks. Mercy’s works because of its massive loss of Defense in comparison to even a Dragonscale Armor, overall resulting in monstrously more damage taken in return for a decent chunk of DPS; Gladiator Guard only slightly reduces the DPS it gives in favor of removing almost any penalty in terms of Defense(outside of against T15, which drops from the same dungeon mind you) and even giving a lot of Speed.

As for Zaarvox vs Gladiator, it feels… wrong, that in order for an item to be good, it has to specifically be paired with another item, even if they happen to be STs. It’s the thing I dislike most about the way ST sets are generally designed; half of the set outright relies on other items to function well or even decently, and now with newer sets, some items are legitimately required to get full effectiveness.

I can’t exactly show every detail, as it’s for the aforementioned Private Server, but I’ll show an edited example of what it looks like.

image
image.png1461x701 55 KB

Essentially, every factor you want to put onto an item has a different effect based on a lot of variables, such as Projectile Count, the True Range of the item, if it has a Status Effect, the Arc Gap range(Scattershot), and of course the normal stats. It shows all of the stats and how they’d react to different amounts of Defense, as well as just raw damage, and even with boosts. All of these are then taken into account with a value that compares itself to Tier 12, including Tier 13 and 14, and based on how many points it has versus Tier 12, it’ll tell you if it needs to be stronger or weaker, while having a range so there’s room for leeway.

It overall works very well, and allows for testing based on the aforementioned variables without having to put it into the game, or even into a testing server. Things will behave differently with different Attack and Dexterity values of course, but given the distribution of those stats among classes, certain things will end up being better or worse on specific classes regardless and should be taken with a grain of salt. There isn’t one for abilities, but those are too specific - especially with the things I want to do to the classes - to put into a calculator.

I can also clarify what some of the terms here mean if you’re curious about their implementation.

Absolutely. Kabam’s biggest issue was neglecting a lot of the game in most aspects and funneling pay-to-“win” into the game, while DECA’s biggest issues are either their marketing, or their complete lack of consistency when it comes to the strength of items, whether it’s endgame or not. Powercreep is normally a bit more… excusable in single player, but not only is this an MMO, it’s a co-op that also relies on luck for getting good things. Powercreep simply doesn’t work well with the game’s overall design, at least IMO.

It’s nothing against you for disagreeing on certain things like Jugg, as I didn’t clarify that one myself. A couple of other things are just hot topics for debate as well, and I’m going down with the ship on those ones either way.

#60

That’s your problem, you have opinions on the internet.
It’s illegal to have opinions on the internet.

#61

It’s not illegal to have opinions, but sometimes they are best kept in your head for the courtesy of others, an art form far too sparsely mastered, it would sometimes seem, both digitally and otherwise.

#62

Buffing weaker/older UT’s will create the same situation as nerfing stronger/newer UT’s.

Buffing ST’s and making P2P players stronger is not something we need at all.

#63

There is a massive difference.

Man, it’s all about Dreamless want to tighten the power gap of UT’s/ST’s.

Nerfing O3 UT’s (bar from pre-nerfed Enforcer) means there is no point of raiding the respective dungeons even iwith the Life Exaltations or O3 tops.

I was expecting item rebalances on RotMG itself, not from some kind of PServers…

#64

No. If you buff, say, coral bow, to have DPS on par with leaf bow and make the shot spred way less, then it will be on par with leaf bow.

If you nerf leaf bow to have similar DPS as coral bow, then the effect will still be the same, leaf bow and coral bow will be effectively the same. Nerfing and buffing the strong and weak, respectively, make no difference.

#65

To both @BaconSM and @PRCSakura,

There’s a reason I say that it takes time to balance things out properly, and the both of you are helping to prove why I say this; the both of you are looking at things far too surface level and immediate than what it should really come down to.

Coming to balance things that are of a similar rarity and difficulty to obtain may seem simple. “Oh, both of these are from dungeons that are similarly balanced, so clearly they should be just as strong as each other, right?” No. That’s looking at things way too plainly and not taking into account a lot of other factors of balance in games as a whole, and not just Realm or RPGs.

What you’re missing is differentiating the items. Sure, both of them are from dungeons that require similar skill levels and are similarly hard to find, so having them be around the same level of strength makes sense. But that is not the thing of most importance here; what ultimately matters is keeping them within a similar level of strength while keeping their purpose and identity unique.

However, I’m also going to use this time to tackle specific points directly.

Absolutely untrue. Leaf Bow is known for having strong single target DPS, due to its lack of pierce, while Coral Bow is faster than a Tiered bow while having one less shot, and keeping pierce. If you have either of them be similar in DPS, Coral Bow will always be infinitely better because it has the benefit of keeping its pierce, and simply buffing it to Leaf Bow’s level, or nerfing Leaf Bow to its level, would ultimately be a horrible way of tackling the issue.

I’m not going to use that system that’s specifically made for the server in question to balance out things from Prod, as their factors are wildly different and their basis for balance should be wildly different as well. You can’t expect something made for different specifications to work when putting it with something that’s just similar and nothing else, because that’s ignoring all of the factors that went into the system itself.

I was showing it as an example that it is not something that requires this huge and overwhelming amount of effort, and that people can make something like it by themselves if they really wanted to.

PRC is correct about the assessment, but ultimately, the both of you aren’t viewing it correctly. Tightening the gap between UTs and STs, and even tiered items, is something that should come naturally when it comes to the balance that’s in something as specific as Realm is; it’s a co-op MMORPG first and foremost. You can balance out endgame items to be close enough to items that are from midgame or early lategame to make people who are newer to the game think, “Hey, that can be me someday!” without it feeling like it’ll be so wildly into the future that they’ll have to rigorously train just for a chance to get it.

The most important thing to bear in mind is that you should keep endgame strong, but not too strong, and that early game should be kept tame, but not so tame that people who are newer to the game will neglect it even when they’re new. Think of the Woodland UTs; they’re generally on the weaker side, but offer enough gameplay variety and are a good introduction to what UTs should be, and as such people who are newer can enjoy them while also getting a grasp for what UTs in the later parts of the game will do. Now think of Corsair Ring… it… it’s almost not even worth wearing for the difficulty of the dungeon compared to where you get Tier 2 rings, which will ultimately be better in all scenarios. And it’s a Cyan.

As I mentioned earlier, this is ultimately the wrong way of thinking. You have to have a fine balance between buffing things in the earlier parts of the game and nerfing things in the endgame to make the level of progression feel more fair, rather than the massive jump it has. Step too far with endgame, and now you’ve done what PRC fears where endgame isn’t worth running. Step too far with pre-endgame, and now you’ve done what Bacon fears, where things effectively feel the same.

This is mainly why it’s best to carefully spend time to make sure that these things are handled carefully and with lots of consideration, rather than how they are now. And I do not say this with no experience; one of the UGC members talked about how things are going there, and from what they’ve explicitly said, DECA not only has the final say in a lot of things(including balance) but is also in absolutely no rush. One UGC member left after 200 days of no response from DECA. If they’re fine with talking about it themselves(the person who mentioned this, not the person who left) and you want to hear it directly from them, I’ll redirect them here so they can talk about it themselves.

I’m not sure what this is supposed to imply, given what it was in response to. “For the courtesy of others” makes it sound as if me stating my opinion and giving my reasoning for it is somehow harming others. I won’t say that this is what’s happening, but that’s simply how it sounds.

Either way, I’m not going to apologize for having my opinions and stating them publicly with my reasoning behind it, just because some people might not be fine with it. They’re not harmful opinions.

#66

That was more aimed at them being snippy about it, not you. Sorry if it was taken that way. I’m increasingly unhappy with drama as of late, part of it from irl. Perhaps I’m starting to get a little cold, but I still stand by what I say.

#67

Mainly went off of what it sounds like, since I wasn’t sure what to take of it(as I mentioned). I can understand being unhappy with drama as recently, I’ve seen way too much of it in other communities and ultimately this thread has been causing some of it as well for fairly dumb reasons.

#68

If I was being snippy I’d come at you with a pair of scissors.
:scissors:️ :scissors:️ :scissors:️ :scissors:️ :scissors:️

:fist: Rock wins, right? (; -Book

#69

I’d assume Coral Bow would actually be worse since the damage would be split between two shots, meaning it’d be worse on higher def enemies but sure