Oryx Sanctuary vs reworked Shatters solo speedrun time

#1

Looking at top youtube searches for “oryx sanctuary solo speedrun” and “shatters solo speedrun”:

  • Oryx Sanctuary Solo 5:47
  • Wizard
  • 7 months ago by Craykiller223

Which means that soloing Oryx Sanctuary can be done in 6 minutes with dedication. On the other hand

  • Shatters Solo 35:57
  • Paladin
  • 4 weeks ago by Craykiller223

Today’s changes seem very promising, I tried them on testing and getting to first boss solo in 5 minutes seemed reasonable, so I really appreciate Deca for tweaking the hp of enemies, but at the moment it seems a bit like Lost Halls 1.0 situation.

In my opinion Shatters still need a lot more work put into them, and I would love to see the solo speedrun time get closer to what whole of oryx sanctuary can take. I think those are reasonable numbers for dungeon completion.

Also just a random thought, with so many sources of life and mana potion, I don’t see a reason for why we couldn’t have a dungeon drop 2-3 greater 6/8 stat potions, similar to how Fungal Cavern drops GVit and GWis. Shatters are already challenging, and in my opinion making the game feel rewarding and fun should be a priority.

Thoughts? Also please other than “Shatters are still new, new strategies are being developed”. I don’t think it’s a reasonable argument for a pve game with such dedicated player base. I don’t think it’s comparable to multiplayer games where indeed new strategies get developed overtime by the ever improving player base and with encouragement from developers in form of frequent, balance changing patch notes.

Doesn’t mean I don’t think there isn’t anything new to discover in reworked Shatters, I just think the issue lies in balance and as I mentioned earlier, it feels like a Lost Halls 1.0 moment.

#2

+1 to getting multiple G-rainbow pots on endgame dungeons! That would be a great change.

#3

Toning down the HP scaling is only 1 step from perfecting the dungeon (hell, it only solves small + large group runs, not solo). The bosses’ base HP needs to be reduced by 1/5. RN, King have only 12k less HP than O3.

#4

You realise you’re comparing a solo speedrun for o3 5 months after its initial release and a shatters speedrun only a month after its release? Plus that’s not even taking into consideration the time needed to clear the realm, oryx castle and wine cellar. It probably won’t get as low as o3 duration but I think that says more about o3’s stagger system being abusable rather than shatters being not well designed.

#5

I feel like a lot of people forget you have to clear an entire realm, do Oryx’s Castle, do Oryx’s Chamber, and do a Wine Cellar before you can go to o3…

The Shatters spawns by an event which almost appears in every realm or you can just buy a key of it.

#6

you’re making the argument he’s already addressed and is also kinda flimsy when you really think about the shatters specifically. how much lower can times get through strats? at best i see it going down by a consistent 6 minutes with optimizations of pathings for second. everywhere else in the dungeon, is mostly optimized as there is less room for “new strats” and just more room for “kill shit faster” (which hp scaling changes do help).

also taking into consideration that argument, while yes there is more individual time for each o3 run than there is a shatts run, the realms themselves are a separate entity from sanctuary (consider this; the NATURAL way to enter a shatts is through avatar, so should one include realm clear time until avatar as part of shatts length?). when realms eventually get their rework and will presumably take longer to clear, o3’s will suddenly become more tedious to get into and actually play through. i think this is mostly fine, as the only times that should be considered with sanctuary are castle, chamber and cellar, which take like 5 minutes collectively.

and it’s so strange; shatts is in the game, right now, and nobody wants to fuckin run them despite all these new uts awaiting us. yet lost halls, are still ran hella consistently, like 4 years post release. it’s pretty clear they’re just not worth the risk nor time right now, and even after the hp changes, probably still won’t be. it’s too much of a farcry from how every other dungeon in the game is played.

#7

Not that this is meant to provide a counter-argument for either side(because it’s interesting to watch the debate), but people weren’t typically eager to run the original design publicly, either. Regardless of this dungeon becoming more dedicated/difficult, the pub culture hasn’t shifted much. Every time I’ve done it, it’s business as usual.

  1. Beat the Ava
  2. Have usually no more than 10 people tops enter.
  3. Maybe get to the first boss. Then see how the fight goes. Most public runners call it a run after that that I see.

With the original design, after a decade or so of existence and plenty of practice, we’d maybe have a few souls complete it because it was cheesable, but again, not many would join.

#8

The original poster is taling about a solo scenario and there is plenty that still can be done to improve times.

For group scenarios currently good groups are finishing it in 20-25 minutes and there was once a trio that finished it in 15 minutes even before HP scaling changes to boss.

#9

I’d like to point out that clearing the realm, Oryx Castle, Oryx 1, Oryx 2, clearing Oryx Sanctuary, clearing the miniboss, and clearing Oryx 3 are all part of the process of an “Oryx 3 run.” With that said, they probably take a similar amount of time. Shatters, being the “easier” dungeon of the two should theoretically take a little less time than it currently does, but I don’t think the answer is reducing amount of minion spawns because honestly, with rushers in the first area, and split groups in the second area, you can get through the minion clearing pretty damn quick. The problem lies in the length of the 2nd and 3rd bosses. They just have too much health currently, especially king. King is a really dodge-focused fight so unless the king is literally chasing you, it’s really hard to reposition yourself to deal damage to king. 2nd boss’s problem isn’t really the amount of health but rather, the amount of phases that you have to go through. So many bird phases. It’s annoying.

But yeah, overall I think the new shatters is REALLY close to being a really good dungeon. Just needs some tweaks on 2nd and 3rd to make them less unbearable.

#10

Oh god the bird phases in archmage are sooooooooooooo tedious. It drags the fight on much longer than it needs to. King hasn’t been that bad for me so far, but I have been playing in vet raids so that is probably why

#11

I’m not trying to compare specifically speedrun time of oryx sanctuary and new shatters.

First, let me address your point of me ignoring the Realm, Castle and Wine Cellar clearing that you need to do before you get to Oryx Sanctuary. I myself see Oryx Sanctuary as standalone dungeon and ignore the aforementioned clearing, and also so do the speedrunners. I respect your point of view where you include clearing into the mix, but for the sake of argument I’m trying to make, which I’ll get to in a moment it doesn’t really matter.
Also random thought, no need to respond to it, why won’t we go as far as starting the timer as soon as fresh realm spawns and count the time it takes to clear events and spawn Avatar? Extreme scenario, but line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Anyway, the point of me even bringing up the speed run times in the original posts was just to spark a discussion, which I’m glad happened. Also I think it’s important to take into consideration the time it takes for dungeon to complete. In my opinion no dungeon should take longer than ~20 minutes to finish with group of any size equipped with tops. I feel like one of the Realm’s strong sides is being able to pop in for couple dozen minutes, without feeling you have to commit your whole afternoon to get something done or enjoy the game.

I can’t know for sure what arguments are best to make when trying to reach to developers and convince them the dungeon still needs tons of work before it’s in acceptable, in my opinion, state.

In Shatters feedback post from testing that was posted here few weeks ago, people that spent many hours playing new Shatters gave a lot of great ideas on how to improve it, feedback that’s much more useful than anything I could ever come up with since I don’t have the time needed to play test thoroughly.

One of the reasons I made this post in first place is the fact, that despite the Shatters being out for a month now, Deca seems to take things very slowly, too slowly in my opinion. First patch addressed couple bugs and was mainly focused on visual issues with the dungeon, if I recall correctly, and the most recent patch pushed through some much needed hp scaling tweaks.

I’m not trying to say they aren’t doing anything, but I think that now, while the dungeon is still fresh and community pays close attention to it, the changes they make should be more aggressive and experience-altering than tweaks to hp. I won’t bring up any specific ideas, since people from Shatters feedback post I mentioned had a ton of solid ones and I think they should be considered first.

Also, addressing your argument of me comparing speedrun 5 months after the dungeon release to couple weeks after release, Oryx Sanctuary speedruns didn’t get significantly faster from initial release to now. As I said the Realm community is very dedicated and the best strategies are discovered fairly quickly.

And I don’t think having to wait 5 months for Exaltation dungeon to be playable (my main issue here is the time it takes, which I think is unreasonable), is not something I’m looking forward to.

Deca’s developers are soon going to be busy with Halloween events and Christmas, then Valentines and so on. In my opinion, making the exaltation dungeon for an important stat enjoyable and accessible should be a priority before they shift their focus to anything else.

Sorry if I skipped any of your points, but I’m a bit all over the place as you might’ve noticed.
Hope the developers keep up the amazing work and consider our feedback in future updates. I see the “we are keeping a close eye on new Shatters” in blog posts and I don’t want it to turn into another “we have tons of plans for the future” or “Unity will address issues with hacking”.

#12

I’d like to address the point you are making and say that I don’t think it’s a healthy state for any content in the game. In my opinion Realm should strive for becoming more public-centered instead of encouraging the necessity for being muted in discord call after waiting for an afk-check to enjoy most of the content.

I don’t have anything against discord runs, I participate in them often, but I’m not sure how we got, or any game could get, to the point where guilds and public runs (aka playing the game as intended) are kind of obsolete and we use third party tool to experience game fully.

I am aware that doing dungeons such as Nest, LH, O3 or Fungal are finishable alone or with public group, but it’s far from optimal and why would you make yourself suffer for anything other than proving that “it is doable”.

#13

I suppose I didn’t point out here that I’m exclusively a public runner. I’ve never joined Organized Discord raids, nor ever plan to do so. With that, I’m speaking with that point of view.

I, too, would also like it if by some magical means that the culture shifted away from the raiding mindset, but that’s a personal vendetta. I’m not trying to push that in this thread, just stating what I’ve observed.

#14

The reason why the game designers are releasing stuff progressively rather than all at once is because it’s easier to slowly nerf things rather than over nerf it and then have to buff it again. And as I said before, the game designers never intended for O3 to be done that quickly in the first place and this is a problem of players feeling accustomed to quick endgame dungeon completes rather than the pacing of shatters being slow. They do not want another abusable O3 like system again which is why they are not quick to do major overhauls for shatters and they will most certainly be tweaking O3 to be less exploitable in the future.

#15

Just to clarify, your opinion is that taking 30 minutes to complete a dungeon with decent group is reasonable?

If that’s the case then well I don’t agree with you, but I respect your opinion.

I think this game and current state of exaltation dungeons (other than Shatters) is mostly in good spot and should be maintained. Personally I wouldn’t feel good about 20+ minute Oryx Sanctuary after I’ve just spent ~20 minutes clearing Realm, Castle and WC.

Also maybe, just because game designers never intended for something to be a thing doesn’t mean it couldn’t become a thing. I’d like to think Deca has flexible mindset when it comes to the direction game takes and if majority of player base enjoys something they wouldn’t completely rework it just because that’s how designers think it should be.
Enhancements and adjustments in my view are most welcome when something needs them, but I don’t think dungeons should be longer just because. If players are used to quick pace, why force them to slow down?

To sum up, I don’t think The Shatters as of right now is in acceptable state and it’s still in need of tweaking. I personally would like developers to explore the idea of multiple greater 6/8 stat pots from each boss, in spirit of making the game feel rewarding if they insist on keeping the current completion duration. Otherwise just make the time spent inside shorter, but that might just be me.

#16

Because reduced duration means you spend less time in danger? If it was up to the players then the game would be a loot simulator which it already is with a lot of current dungeons.

#17

Personally I enjoy soloing long dungeons, even better if there is more variety while doing it.

Usually do Ddocks and Cdepths since they feel nice to clear and do the boss.
Solo cult is also really fun, and with a guaranteed vial.
I’d imagine that Fungal Caverns are also similarly relaxing.

With the Shatters nerf, it is probably possible to have the same experience with the dungeon areas (don’t know about the bosses tho).

If the Shatters doesn’t get any easier after a couple of months, something that might make Shatters worthwhile to do, whether in group or solo, is by adding something similar to the void vial for the forgotten king? (not an entire route like void, but like a voided event chest for void or to spawn slightly different corrupted o3 after exalted o3? Just throwing ideas out there)

#18

Does that also mean you advocate for a current situation with Beisa and Forgotten King where there are X seconds long unskippable invulnerability phases of doing nothing but dodging? I think every dungeon nowadays should implement Marble Colossus solution, where bullet hell dodging phases are skippable if you do enough damage or, in case of MBC, destroying keys.

LH 1.0 had 2.5 minutes of unskippable survival and I’m starting to feel like you think it was a good design choice.

Having to spend less time in danger doesn’t mean the game is easier (especially if it’s subjective danger, one might find spending 15 minutes clearing same minions not dangerous at all and instead a mindless chore, while another might find pre-rework Ice Adept more dangerous than pre-rework Bridge Sentinel, one might find Oryx 3 Celestial a moment to breath, while another feels it unfair and bullshit). You should be able to shorten the time in danger by taking a risk and pushing in for damage.

Looks like we have different views on it tho.

#19

There is a fine line between rewarding the use of maxed characters, high end items, divine pet, and high level skill, vs. requiring them. It should be up to the players which of those boxes they want to tick before entering a dungeon.

Spending 30-60 minutes in a dungeon with a small group where the average player brings half that sounds understandable if is enjoyable, possible, and rewarding. Anything in excess of that sounds kind of exhausting ngl.

When I was newer at lategame stuff I used to clear to Cults solo pre o3 scaling changes on characters that were 0/8 with rare pet, and sometimes weren’t even level 20 with like t9 weapons after I got a few under my belt. Even though it took like 2 hours at first it was kinda chill. I understood that I probably couldn’t beat MBC like that though, unless I came back with better set, stats, pet, group, strategy/knowledge, or all of the above.

The same situation applies to re Shatters, except it’s experienced players with stacked characters with fewer skissues going through the grind I went though. My suggestion right now would be add a portal of cowardice after each boss so I can dip when I’m not comfortable progressing.

#20

Gentlemen, this game will die or you will quit in a few years max. Let us enjoy what we have