PT: Oryx 3, Bard, and Livestream

#226

Is it just me, or is the testing server down right now?

#227

The one thing I would change is maybe increase the range boost, just a little. I know on the initial testing it was a 1.5x multiplier. I think that is a bit much, but maybe crank it up to 1.35x or 1.4x? 1.25x is almost completely unnoticeable to the point that it becomes overshadowed by the other use of the ability, energized.

Respond to:
Bard
Can the bard just function as a mana paladin? By this I mean it provides an instant MP burst, gives energized (mana healing), and increases the max mana of the players it affects? Obviously as this is much more powerful than paladin’s HP healing it should still have its cooldown, but Inspire is just such a massive problem. If inspired applied only to the bard it would be totally fine too (with the above effects as well if you wish), but currently this ability is just way too powerful. No application radius or increase will really make it balanced unless it is so small that it benefits nobody, at which point it should just be removed in favor of something else (this something else being provided above). Looking at the weapons list under the current increase, we have:

Tiered swords -> Sword of the Colossus

Colossus sword is so powerful not just because of its damage, but because of its range. This mitigates the melees greatest weakness almost completely, but now it is not a rare lost halls item, but an ability which can be provided at every stage of the game with every item. This also makes swords like the Crystal and Ancient Stone swords even more useless.

Sword of the Colossus -> Tiered Dagger

Do I have to explain this…?

Tiered Dagger -> 7 Range , Bow of the Void / Deathless Crossbow -> 7 Range , Doom Bow - 8.8 range

While these are different weapon classes so this may appear confusing at first, it is because they have the same range (and therefore the same point). 5.6 was already a relatively comfortable range. You are still vulnerable to shots, but usually far fewer than the melee for example, and even much safer than the shorter range options such as the Dirk of Cronus (cronus already has 3 better daggers and t14 may be the fourth… can you please buff it? This is not a joke, it’s an event white) and the Etherite Dagger (which will now have an incredibly comfortable range of 4.8 under Inspire as well).
However, a range of 7? The point of shorter range swapouts is for more risk in exchange for damage, but this is just completely erased from the picture with the bard. A range of 7 (which is a doom bow for those who are unfamiliar) allows for you to be in a minuscule amount of danger at almost every point in all fights. For classes that already have the benefit of stealth (rogue), deception (trickster), incredibly safe damage through poison (assassin), crowd control to hinder and prevent enemies from reaching the group or themselves (archer/huntress), offering this range with no downside makes them creep on the definition of dungeon balance, and as anti range is a seldom implemented game mechanic safety will become a major problem in both game design and class composition over time. Allowing the heavies to become leathers and the leathers to approach staves is not acceptable. Doom bow is effectively a wand, meaning that this swapout will now allow for the bow classes to almost never be in any real form of danger.

Katanas 4.75 -> 6

This may not be quite as meaningful as the above boosts, but the katanas still follow the general theme outlined above.

Staves & Wands - As both of these reach over 10 tiles there is not that great of a difference between them, but need we forget that in the old Lair of Draconis the St. Abrahams wand (which has less range than both staff and wand under Inspire) could skip black entirely?

This kind of power, especially under the fullscreen of exalt depending on what class is being discussed (see the previous weapons) is completely unacceptable for any class to wield under any condition. While I understand this PT is more oriented around o3, I am very disappointed to see Inspire as anything besides a self buff or just outright removed from the game (I feel the previous may be more fair given that it is a robe class after all), I thought after PT 1 you would learn but here we are again. Bumping the range down, regardless of the extent it is done, will still be overpowered unless it is brought to a level that is insignificant, making the class useless in many cases. Please consider the suggestions I left at the start of this post as I feel they are the best direction to take this class in, but at the very least do NOT let a range buff to others make it into production.

If you think any range buff is not absurd in the first place you either need to test outside of the o3 vacuum or use it on a class thats not the katanas (as thats the only place you shouldn’t notice it to an extreme degree on, although to be honest you should there too). In addition to this you are not considering that mana buffs of any type are extremely valuable, so the bard by no means NEEDS a game breaking mechanic to be very good.

#228

You have a point. Although I loved almost everything about the new Bard class, the range boosting ability is hard to make sense of. Range is one of the main aspects that makes each class unique.

Maybe the range boost would be more balanced if it only applied to tiered equipment. I’m not sure.

As a musician, I feel the same. The default skin is very cute. :guitar::notes:

#229

You want the bards entire ability to be that he gives himself mana? lmfao? a reasonable suggestion would be to increase shot velocity while maintaining range.

#230

Yeah, I think he needs something else besides just the mana bonus. Mana is nice, but health is way more important. Many classes don’t even benefit from having extra mana anyway. I think Bard needs to maintain some sort of extra perk to his ability in order for the class to stay relevant.

#231

Since the topic has moved onto the bard. One thing I realized is that the Bard is a very newbie-friendly class.

  • Bow + Inspired means that the Bard can focus more on learning dodging than aiming. This is obviously a bigger priority when getting used to new dungeons or bosses. His armor reflects his long-distance and ability-focused playstyle.

  • Energized helps the Bard prolong his Inspired and also massively aids fellow newbies that may not have great pets yet, and even if other players do have a great pet, if they played as mana-heavy classes, there’s no real reason to complain.

  • Both ability buffs are party effects so sticking with a group is highly encouraged for the bard. It’s safer to stay with the group anyway so newbies can still be helpful while staying safe.

Soo… he gets a Yes from me.

#232

Agreed. I think it’s a good addition.

#233

guess i missed this rip

#234

No, my suggestion is for him to give the group Energized, increased max MP, and mana burst. While I don’t have a problem with your projectile speed suggestion, I feel like just energized would leave bard as a bit of an undesired class and this is a much better way to go about it. Allow me to explain:

Under my Inspire, bard’s increased bow range gives him (her? I don’t know what gender they gave it) about the same range as what the normal robes operate in, making up for the fact that it is a robe and has a generally underwhelming statline (without destroying the game’s balance).

However, you and @Isabell are not giving mana nearly enough credit here. People have already talked about how strong energized alone is in these two threads, so giving a cap and instant restoration is also huge. There are also numerous classes that mana has a ton of value on in comparison to HP, and this argument also does not factor how much you enable classes that do give direct hp. Not only would bard be incredibly powerful for players with weaker pets (this cannot be understated) as well as the strong, but it has a ton of utility for these classes specifically:
Sorcerer - That many more devastations has got to feel good.
Wizard - The above point, but even more so.
Knight - More CC and utility potentials (imagine non scutum perma stuns but with much weaker pet) as well as the increased raw shield damage
Priest - absurdly powerful in conjunction with this class, even more so than it already is
Paladin & Necromancer - Increased heals / more spam as well, albeit less powerful (but you don’t need a ton of heal for a ton of value, and bard + their natural potential is definitely a ton of value
Of course to what degree depends on the final numbers that may come as a result of my suggestion, but to say that it is “not enough” when we can already see the effects of Energized alone seems disingenuous.

#235

I’ve tried, with about an average of 5 fps, and 200 net jitter; all I see is rubber bands

#236

It seems to me the majority of times we’ll already be hitting a target perfectly well, then get a range boost, okay thanks, I guess; like the inconsequential “helpful” priest healing when you’re already at maxHP. If we’re hitting with a non-pierce weapon, we won’t even realise we’ve got extra range, and most players have ally projectiles off, so weird to now bring in an ability that affects something we can’t even see. Lol.

Organised/voice chat groups will be able to make the most of it more than casual players of course, ensuring they have enough Bards to extend range as&when required “on demand” so it does seem designed with them in mind. And there will be some few clear situations where it’s useful (like the players unwilling to dance at O2).

Strikes me as it will be a bit like stasis when the Mystic themself can plan to use it for their own benefit, but other players usually can’t anticipate/plan for it, it will be something most Bards activate at times when they themselves want it, whereas other players have to: realise we’ve been enhanced, then we can move back a bit, then it wears off so we go back in to normal range. Or the weird scenario where we’re clustered around the Bard saying “Range pls”? Lol.

So yeah, it’s a funny choice, gives an extra thing to consider when designing/balancing the game too. Not outright bad, just, a bit like samurai, feels trying to crowbar in more party effects when something simpler could be hugely more satisfying to play (press space get paid type thing).

I said in the original testing for Bard it might be more straightforward to make the range boost (Inspire) be a solo effect, and keep the party effect as the Energised, so repeating that here. Or as others suggest, ATT/DEX/shotspeed increase instead. Party range boost also seems to bring with it a few needless complications (like O2 granting fame is still annoyingly tied to proximity of the killer, giving everyone more range spaces us out more, so we’ll miss the XP even more often than now); (melee becomes another notch easier to play); (shots travelling beyond sight which WS realised was bad design). All that said, I enjoy safety-first play, and helping newbs, and a good Bard would be a great use to a weaker group, and Inspire also helps those with lower pets. So yeah, we’ll see.

We’re running at a quite shameful 12-3 M/F on the champion select screen, and the last “her” class added was Trickster (2011)… so… yeah, am hoping for not another default=him.

#237

I think you mean Energized instead of Inspire? Inspire is the range boost.

maybe by then he can be a mana pally? perhaps? maybe?

#238

Thanks, edited!

#239

As I have said on the thread before I totally agree with solo inspire because of the bard’s lackluster statline and its state as a robe class, however I do think energized alone would be too underwhelming (which is why I have provided my alternate ideas here as well). What do you think of them?

#240

Well personally I don’t even like paladin being so strong, IMO damaging+healing is (was) already a strong enough combo ability for paladins to wield without the +MaxHP & small heal, so because I’m anti-that, I’d probs be anti an MP equivalent of paladin. Higher MP bars would increase steamroll which I don’t enjoy seeing. I’m a big fan of keeping things simple and not stacking several different things into one ability too.

Energise is a bit of a strange one because for higher pet owners, it’s really not much benefit (relatively) since they already have so much MP replenishment that they can’t use it fast enough on many classes. Probably bard needed to be released in tandem with the in/out of combat pet changes. As it is, it’s going to increase group steamroll no matter what, but should still be interesting for the bard themselves to choose when to ability for their own combat, and then the group too. And that’s what matters most, is it fun/interesting to play. (Rip samurai sheath ability).

#241

we’re also at 0 “they” characters for anyone who remembers or cares, maybe that could be an option if it ever occurs to deca

#242

Well, Inspire already increases shot speed. And if you want increased shot speed with identical range, that’d mean a lifetime decrease…except then they’d need to find a way to make that not affect things which don’t use a speed parameter for their projectiles in the first place (Bulwark, Void Blade), since otherwise Bard could just be a nuisance for Ninjas and Samurai who wish to stack up Void Blade shots.

The ATT/DEX boost is also a bad idea, imo, since that just makes groups even more steamrolly, which we really don’t need.
At the same time I also disagree on the self-range increase, since you’re already at bow range. You often don’t really need the extra range - and if you do, TShot’s 7.59 is usually enough to get the job done relatively quickly.

#243

“they” would fit the knight since all you see is the armor

#244

https://www.realmeye.com/wiki/knight

Game Description: The knight fights at close range, wears very heavy armor, and uses his shield to stun enemies.

#245

Made a ~20 minute video discussing what I like and don’t like about the dungeon, with gameplay to demonstrate my points. I go into more detail in my video, but I’ll list my main issues here so that they can be more easily seen.

  1. Dungeon Progression: This is the biggest issue with the dungeon overall. Dragging minions to deal with them safely leads to a softlock? Boss doors close almost instantly? No telegraphing to the player on how these elements work? These mechanics are really unfair and not at all in the spirit of Oryx’s Castle/Chamber/Wine Cellar. The ability to hop walls into and out of boss rooms also falls into this category – it should definitely just work like the reworked cemetery with hallways that teleport and aren’t walkable after closing. I’ll be hugely disappointed if this stuff isn’t changed before this reaches prod.

  2. Difficulty Curve: This is a boss-specific issue. Most of the bosses in here have phases that vary wildly in difficulty. Most of the phases on all bosses are pretty easily dealt with, but they each have one or two that are way harder than the rest. I’d strongly recommend that the difficulty be evened out so that the easier phases more closely match the harder ones, while keeping their respective identities.

  3. Survival Orientation: Mainly a complaint with Oryx, but it applies to Dammah as well. The setup of phases timing out felt like it was pushing me to just dodge during the actual fight and get my hits in between phases, since there was a fairly large opportunity between them. I suggest instead making phases damage-based like Oryx 2, and reducing the downtime between them in order to encourage players to actually engage with the boss instead of winning a battle of attrition.

  4. Group Dynamics: Smallest issue on this list, but still worth a mention. This dungeon felt like it was designed for a group of 10 people. Gemsbok’s exceptionally fast teleportation is the most obvious example of this, but there’s also stuff like the green portals bearing down on the nearest player in the Dammah fight where it’s hard on your own but not a big issue with 3+ people. It was also strange when I ended up trying to solo O3 on a rogue – it was like he turned into a Wildshadow boss with how little he did against a cloaked rogue (for the most part). It felt like the bosses were made with the assumption that no one would ever try to solo with a rogue or trickster, so that wasn’t a design consideration. I also heard that it has exponential hp scaling which is nice in terms of discouraging huge discord raids, but it really makes it feel as though you’re being compressed from both sides into bringing a very specific group in order to run the dungeon.

In terms of positive stuff, I have a lot of specific phases that I like, and the overall structure of the dungeon really works for me, provided the issues I listed in point 1 are fixed. I quite like the minion design as well – they all have unique patterns and personality, and are (refreshingly) not bullet sponges. The dungeon overall has a lot of character and I like the spritework for the environment/characters. There’s also a prevailing sense of fairness in the dungeon – it’s hard, but it doesn’t have any insta-pops that other lategame dungeons rely on – Shatters, Lost Halls, Nest, Caverns, etc.

Overall I really liked this dungeon. All the major flaws are pretty easily fixed and it doesn’t have any underlying inherent design flaws holding it back. Looking forward to trying this again on prod, especially since I wasn’t able to put in enough time to actually complete an O3 fight due to finals week taking priority.

The video I referred to at the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ePO2A3TBhE

P.S. This isn’t feedback regarding the content itself per se, but I wish there was a way to open portals to specific bosses for testing purposes. Every reset took a really long time to run back due to the extended minion sections/random midbosses, and I eventually gave up on doing anything other than medium group runs for that reason. I would have appreciated the ability to test more thoroughly for small groups/solo purposes, but I gave up on that due to time constraints and tedium.