PT: Oryx 3, Bard, and Livestream

#230

Yeah, I think he needs something else besides just the mana bonus. Mana is nice, but health is way more important. Many classes don’t even benefit from having extra mana anyway. I think Bard needs to maintain some sort of extra perk to his ability in order for the class to stay relevant.

#231

Since the topic has moved onto the bard. One thing I realized is that the Bard is a very newbie-friendly class.

  • Bow + Inspired means that the Bard can focus more on learning dodging than aiming. This is obviously a bigger priority when getting used to new dungeons or bosses. His armor reflects his long-distance and ability-focused playstyle.

  • Energized helps the Bard prolong his Inspired and also massively aids fellow newbies that may not have great pets yet, and even if other players do have a great pet, if they played as mana-heavy classes, there’s no real reason to complain.

  • Both ability buffs are party effects so sticking with a group is highly encouraged for the bard. It’s safer to stay with the group anyway so newbies can still be helpful while staying safe.

Soo… he gets a Yes from me.

#232

Agreed. I think it’s a good addition.

#233

guess i missed this rip

#234

No, my suggestion is for him to give the group Energized, increased max MP, and mana burst. While I don’t have a problem with your projectile speed suggestion, I feel like just energized would leave bard as a bit of an undesired class and this is a much better way to go about it. Allow me to explain:

Under my Inspire, bard’s increased bow range gives him (her? I don’t know what gender they gave it) about the same range as what the normal robes operate in, making up for the fact that it is a robe and has a generally underwhelming statline (without destroying the game’s balance).

However, you and @Isabell are not giving mana nearly enough credit here. People have already talked about how strong energized alone is in these two threads, so giving a cap and instant restoration is also huge. There are also numerous classes that mana has a ton of value on in comparison to HP, and this argument also does not factor how much you enable classes that do give direct hp. Not only would bard be incredibly powerful for players with weaker pets (this cannot be understated) as well as the strong, but it has a ton of utility for these classes specifically:
Sorcerer - That many more devastations has got to feel good.
Wizard - The above point, but even more so.
Knight - More CC and utility potentials (imagine non scutum perma stuns but with much weaker pet) as well as the increased raw shield damage
Priest - absurdly powerful in conjunction with this class, even more so than it already is
Paladin & Necromancer - Increased heals / more spam as well, albeit less powerful (but you don’t need a ton of heal for a ton of value, and bard + their natural potential is definitely a ton of value
Of course to what degree depends on the final numbers that may come as a result of my suggestion, but to say that it is “not enough” when we can already see the effects of Energized alone seems disingenuous.

#235

I’ve tried, with about an average of 5 fps, and 200 net jitter; all I see is rubber bands

#236

It seems to me the majority of times we’ll already be hitting a target perfectly well, then get a range boost, okay thanks, I guess; like the inconsequential “helpful” priest healing when you’re already at maxHP. If we’re hitting with a non-pierce weapon, we won’t even realise we’ve got extra range, and most players have ally projectiles off, so weird to now bring in an ability that affects something we can’t even see. Lol.

Organised/voice chat groups will be able to make the most of it more than casual players of course, ensuring they have enough Bards to extend range as&when required “on demand” so it does seem designed with them in mind. And there will be some few clear situations where it’s useful (like the players unwilling to dance at O2).

Strikes me as it will be a bit like stasis when the Mystic themself can plan to use it for their own benefit, but other players usually can’t anticipate/plan for it, it will be something most Bards activate at times when they themselves want it, whereas other players have to: realise we’ve been enhanced, then we can move back a bit, then it wears off so we go back in to normal range. Or the weird scenario where we’re clustered around the Bard saying “Range pls”? Lol.

So yeah, it’s a funny choice, gives an extra thing to consider when designing/balancing the game too. Not outright bad, just, a bit like samurai, feels trying to crowbar in more party effects when something simpler could be hugely more satisfying to play (press space get paid type thing).

I said in the original testing for Bard it might be more straightforward to make the range boost (Inspire) be a solo effect, and keep the party effect as the Energised, so repeating that here. Or as others suggest, ATT/DEX/shotspeed increase instead. Party range boost also seems to bring with it a few needless complications (like O2 granting fame is still annoyingly tied to proximity of the killer, giving everyone more range spaces us out more, so we’ll miss the XP even more often than now); (melee becomes another notch easier to play); (shots travelling beyond sight which WS realised was bad design). All that said, I enjoy safety-first play, and helping newbs, and a good Bard would be a great use to a weaker group, and Inspire also helps those with lower pets. So yeah, we’ll see.

We’re running at a quite shameful 12-3 M/F on the champion select screen, and the last “her” class added was Trickster (2011)… so… yeah, am hoping for not another default=him.

#237

I think you mean Energized instead of Inspire? Inspire is the range boost.

maybe by then he can be a mana pally? perhaps? maybe?

#238

Thanks, edited!

#239

As I have said on the thread before I totally agree with solo inspire because of the bard’s lackluster statline and its state as a robe class, however I do think energized alone would be too underwhelming (which is why I have provided my alternate ideas here as well). What do you think of them?

#240

Well personally I don’t even like paladin being so strong, IMO damaging+healing is (was) already a strong enough combo ability for paladins to wield without the +MaxHP & small heal, so because I’m anti-that, I’d probs be anti an MP equivalent of paladin. Higher MP bars would increase steamroll which I don’t enjoy seeing. I’m a big fan of keeping things simple and not stacking several different things into one ability too.

Energise is a bit of a strange one because for higher pet owners, it’s really not much benefit (relatively) since they already have so much MP replenishment that they can’t use it fast enough on many classes. Probably bard needed to be released in tandem with the in/out of combat pet changes. As it is, it’s going to increase group steamroll no matter what, but should still be interesting for the bard themselves to choose when to ability for their own combat, and then the group too. And that’s what matters most, is it fun/interesting to play. (Rip samurai sheath ability).

#241

we’re also at 0 “they” characters for anyone who remembers or cares, maybe that could be an option if it ever occurs to deca

#242

Well, Inspire already increases shot speed. And if you want increased shot speed with identical range, that’d mean a lifetime decrease…except then they’d need to find a way to make that not affect things which don’t use a speed parameter for their projectiles in the first place (Bulwark, Void Blade), since otherwise Bard could just be a nuisance for Ninjas and Samurai who wish to stack up Void Blade shots.

The ATT/DEX boost is also a bad idea, imo, since that just makes groups even more steamrolly, which we really don’t need.
At the same time I also disagree on the self-range increase, since you’re already at bow range. You often don’t really need the extra range - and if you do, TShot’s 7.59 is usually enough to get the job done relatively quickly.

#243

“they” would fit the knight since all you see is the armor

#244

https://www.realmeye.com/wiki/knight

Game Description: The knight fights at close range, wears very heavy armor, and uses his shield to stun enemies.

#245

Made a ~20 minute video discussing what I like and don’t like about the dungeon, with gameplay to demonstrate my points. I go into more detail in my video, but I’ll list my main issues here so that they can be more easily seen.

  1. Dungeon Progression: This is the biggest issue with the dungeon overall. Dragging minions to deal with them safely leads to a softlock? Boss doors close almost instantly? No telegraphing to the player on how these elements work? These mechanics are really unfair and not at all in the spirit of Oryx’s Castle/Chamber/Wine Cellar. The ability to hop walls into and out of boss rooms also falls into this category – it should definitely just work like the reworked cemetery with hallways that teleport and aren’t walkable after closing. I’ll be hugely disappointed if this stuff isn’t changed before this reaches prod.

  2. Difficulty Curve: This is a boss-specific issue. Most of the bosses in here have phases that vary wildly in difficulty. Most of the phases on all bosses are pretty easily dealt with, but they each have one or two that are way harder than the rest. I’d strongly recommend that the difficulty be evened out so that the easier phases more closely match the harder ones, while keeping their respective identities.

  3. Survival Orientation: Mainly a complaint with Oryx, but it applies to Dammah as well. The setup of phases timing out felt like it was pushing me to just dodge during the actual fight and get my hits in between phases, since there was a fairly large opportunity between them. I suggest instead making phases damage-based like Oryx 2, and reducing the downtime between them in order to encourage players to actually engage with the boss instead of winning a battle of attrition.

  4. Group Dynamics: Smallest issue on this list, but still worth a mention. This dungeon felt like it was designed for a group of 10 people. Gemsbok’s exceptionally fast teleportation is the most obvious example of this, but there’s also stuff like the green portals bearing down on the nearest player in the Dammah fight where it’s hard on your own but not a big issue with 3+ people. It was also strange when I ended up trying to solo O3 on a rogue – it was like he turned into a Wildshadow boss with how little he did against a cloaked rogue (for the most part). It felt like the bosses were made with the assumption that no one would ever try to solo with a rogue or trickster, so that wasn’t a design consideration. I also heard that it has exponential hp scaling which is nice in terms of discouraging huge discord raids, but it really makes it feel as though you’re being compressed from both sides into bringing a very specific group in order to run the dungeon.

In terms of positive stuff, I have a lot of specific phases that I like, and the overall structure of the dungeon really works for me, provided the issues I listed in point 1 are fixed. I quite like the minion design as well – they all have unique patterns and personality, and are (refreshingly) not bullet sponges. The dungeon overall has a lot of character and I like the spritework for the environment/characters. There’s also a prevailing sense of fairness in the dungeon – it’s hard, but it doesn’t have any insta-pops that other lategame dungeons rely on – Shatters, Lost Halls, Nest, Caverns, etc.

Overall I really liked this dungeon. All the major flaws are pretty easily fixed and it doesn’t have any underlying inherent design flaws holding it back. Looking forward to trying this again on prod, especially since I wasn’t able to put in enough time to actually complete an O3 fight due to finals week taking priority.

The video I referred to at the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ePO2A3TBhE

P.S. This isn’t feedback regarding the content itself per se, but I wish there was a way to open portals to specific bosses for testing purposes. Every reset took a really long time to run back due to the extended minion sections/random midbosses, and I eventually gave up on doing anything other than medium group runs for that reason. I would have appreciated the ability to test more thoroughly for small groups/solo purposes, but I gave up on that due to time constraints and tedium.

#246

I know the description refers to the knight as he, I was saying it could be changed to “they” because it would make more sense

#247

Hmmmmmm what if Bard was deliberately hampered by having a default range % nerf (lifetime projectile nerf) to make their (non-Inspired) bow projectiles only travel as far as a katana/dagger…? I mean thematically they aren’t an archer so would fit to be worse at firing bows.

And then with Inspire they get that :muscle: bigger range. So the class would play like a katana-bow hybrid when Inspire was off/on, with fragile due to robe, so you actually DO need to Inspire yourself unless you are happy to be super close range on a robe.

But we’re probably going too far back to the drawing board aren’t we with things like this. Though I love these fantasy class discussions!

Somewhat related:

#248

I feel like ninja could have been a good “they” class, but if you think about it, most classes could be gender fluid with skins. Representation of the non-binary community (probably?) wasn’t as big of a deal in 2013, when ninja was added, and samurai was a traditionally masculine word.

#249

I know I may be inputting late on this, but as I was re-reviewing the stream for a clip I needed I couldn’t help but notice how the new new tops powercreep on a ton of existing items, changing them from “situational” to “put in the bin once you have o3 tops”, and the #1 case of this I noticed is in the Armor of Nil. While item strength is a great motivation to participate in a dungeon, removing the entire purpose of swapouts or specific items should not be (and by extension it greatly limits the amount of content players want to complete as they will have less items to go for overall and never have to make choices in what they use, when, and why). Just because o3 has exclusivity does not justify some of the new tops at their current power level (especially when their rates are highly favorable), because in the long term people are going to get their hands on these items, and with the rates that will likely be put out, in abundance. This is not to say that o3 should not be rewarding because it absolutely should for the effort required, but considering that it will also likely drop very powerful UTs (untiereds were mentioned in the stream not only for all minibosses but o3 himself) in addition to this myriad of new tops I think some considerations about these items should be made. For my primary example I will be pointing to the Nil referenced earlier.

Armor of Nil
+24 DEF
-4 SPD

Leviathan Armor
+21 DEF
+7 DEX

In what universe do you not wear the leviathan at all times? O3 drops should not be powercreeping what is currently the most endgame dungeon, especially not when they are just a tiered item. Not only does Nil give up 4 speed which is a loss in terms of tank technically due to a minus in potential to dodge, but it also misses an entire 7 DEX, almost the equivalent of an exa dex, just for 3 defense. You already balanced some of the halls armors around the tiered item buffs, so what are you going to do about the even greater problem presented by o3 tops?