[Spoilers] Melee Nerfs, Warrior ST Rework, Endless Torment Updated and more

#45

Just dodge :slight_smile:

#46

… isn’t that what I just said?

#47

This is scary… not sure how I feel about this yet…

#48

Weak does not undo damaging, please stop spreading this misinformation. I see it constantly, even on the wiki, and it’s wrong. Try it yourself in the highlands with a paladin, there’s an abundance of dark elves that will weak you for free.

#49

I did it and it clearly shows that damaging does nothing while being weakend

#50

I welcome a nerf to Warrior’s dps, and general group dps. I feel warrior is a bit too powerful, and group run dungeons are too easy (Lost Halls).

With that I can support a Paladin seal nerf, but I don’t think it deserves to be as heavily nerfed as warrior.

However, mystic and necromancer solo play being nerfed by this makes little sense to me. I’d much rather not have the damaging/berserk nerfs at all if that’s the case.

A nerf specific to warrior, Paladin, and group dps would be what I’d like to see. A sword nerf, or only nerfing Helms and Seals.

I see DECA is aiming for some kind of consistency with the changes, but they have been willing to be inconsistent before with the Bloody Cloak (and new Tome of Furor) applied buffs.

Please choose to not accept nerfing mystic and necromancer as a side effect of targeting other classes. I think they are already great as is in solo play.

#51

Everybody needs to stop whistle blowing over Mystic and ST skull/Conflict. Yes, DECA is tinkering with melee buffs in an effort to balance them. No, these changes are not set in stone nor do they reflect a finished product. I 100% guarantee if this were to go through they’d change Orbs & ST Skull/Conflict to give +Dex/Atk in a similar fashion to Bloody Cloak. Why would they need to have this change put in a test build focused around melees? They don’t. Calm down and talk about melees.

From the way half these posts read it’s almost like it’s a bunch of warriors trying to use mystic as an excuse to not nerf the ridiculous dmg of melees. Balance doesn’t work that way when you can do literally anything you want to the game, all these non-existent mystics are NOT going to be indirectly nerfed. Please go post about why your Warrior should deal 5x the dmg of a priest because ‘change is scary’.

On the topic of the nerfs themselves, it’s not even that extreme. Once again it’s a nerf focused on reducing group dmg. What’s wrong with that? Are people really so adverse to playing the game that they get up in arms over having to shoot a boss for 5 seconds instead of 2 seconds? I doubt this will even be the last change DECA does. They seem really invested in totally revamping the game’s meta this MotMG, and I’m really excited to see what’s in store. Who cares if your warrior shoots slower than before when it gets a whole new mechanic instead? Calm down, breathe, don’t look at numbers or stare at graphs, just take things in stride and evolve, adapt, and overcome.

#52

It’s difficult to judge outcomes when lots of things change at the same time. I wish they’d do such things incrementally.

The buffs: I like them being quite high effect, since it means you are relatively punished more for not being a mixed party. Take that away and why bother coordinating if it’s only a minor increase. I like the idea @Mynamerr said to maybe move the party buffs on some new classes (but ofc I like any idea if it gives more classes…). But maybe 1.2x will still be fine. Who knows, I’ve never tried it.

It’s also difficult to judge when we don’t know why the changes are being done. Is it to cause people to choose swords less than now? To reduce steamroll/group DPS? To rebalance pala/warrior vs knight? To rebalance berzerk/dmging vs curse/exposed? Each goal would have a different way of achieving it (eg. could keep seal’s dmging on self at 1.5x but party effect lower to 1.2x, could simply reduce/increase max ATT/DEX stats of the class). What about the +HP from seal (which is probably the main thing unbalancing pala vs the other swords). Etc.

I think I just yearn for the days when they’d simply change things, no warning, we’d have a Dev message “Hi game, we think X is too powerful/drop rate too high/too easy/too tough so we’ve changed it, see what you think”. Not this supertanker approach where things take months to happen. Let us have a try and we can give true feedback (ahem testing!), then push it out knowing it’s a good change.

I might sound like I’m anti-change, I really am not, it’s just frustrating how some of the things that are really affecting the game (HP Scale) more than anything else, seemingly isn’t being revisited.

#53

For the record I was referring to public dungeons and realms (where the average pala count at least on EUW is 1) not organised pops which will obviously min-max their set-ups.

#54

That’s really a subject of another topic, that unorganised pub halls are very unsuccessful.

#55

I think I just yearn for the days when they’d simply change things, no warning

I agree wholeheartedly, I’d even venture that these kinds of ‘leak’ posts are harmful to the production of meaningful change. Of course people are against change, it’s only natural; however it must be considered that those against any particular change are going to be the most vocal. Giving them a platform to shout down changes (that are neither complete nor final!) gives both the community and the developers a biased impression of what the community thinks of balance changes.

Just push it through to testing! It’s sad that the sword nerfs never made it to testing, hopefully not because of public backlash from the ‘leak’. I don’t side with any particular belief about the melees but its a shame that those changes didn’t make it even for the sake of ruling them out - ‘I guess we nerfed melees too hard, now we can consider other viable ways of shifting power around’. This kind of discussion is not only healthy, but refreshing for the game.

I feel like no one reads Niegel’s ‘very subject to change’ pre-text. :frowning:

#56

facts my dude, this motmg is gonna be amazing

#57

About damn time the -10 def is gone, always thought that was a ridiculous amount of def to LOSE. And as far as the shots being added with full set, that’s pretty cool. BUT, nerfing damaging and berserk is pretty lame. That’s not gonna go over too well.

#58

So Warrior would only get speedy from helm and Pala would only get HP+ and HoT?

#59

Maybe warrior would also get some small other bonus

#60

Maybe if the testing servers were up more and there were of a constant presence on the server, and changes were implemented on there (and testing were more long term before actually implementing the changes), these changes would seem less jarring and odd.

#61

Its up now (its kind of scary)

#62

im aware im late to this but these are the most idiotic class changes i have ever seen, I sincerely hope that they never see the light of prod

#63

They really are stupid ideas.

#64

(My introductory statement has been redacted as I have received new information about the state of proposed changes (most importantly that they are cancelled), but I still believe this talk about the game is one of value which is why I am leaving the thread up and being active in replies).

My immediate concern is group play. Due to the massive nerfs of buffs, group dps will be on a major decline. In addition, enemy debuffs will now no longer be able to be constantly or even reliably applied, making group dps and coordination, and confusion worse as well (resulting in much more death and perilous runs). A long time ago I had made a post about creating stasis indicators to deal with the problem of stasis timers screwing players, and seeing as how that to this day has not been fixed I am hard pressed to believe that the above will not be even more catastrophic than this.
Furthermore, I also think that removing immunities from bosses removes a lot of their identity, what makes them them. If you are able to stun the marble colossus on a tentacle phase or even in survival, has he not lost his identity? What makes the colossus different from say, Archdemon Malphas? The 3 seconds that he is unstunned and shoots out a few shots with the rocks? Of course this could be tinkered with, but it would be a very difficult balancing act that I could not see being healthy for boss fights on the whole, which I guess is one of the main bases of my complaints. With this rework, Deca is suggesting that fights are not only much longer, but operate mostly to entirely debuff timers which are impossible to know without extensive calling, if you knew when the ability was cast, or an indicator (which based on what I have said would be unlikely). This not only takes away a lot of the charm of these fights and the identity of these phases as previously stated (at least in my thinking), but it makes it even more tedious as they will now be less flavorful and longer. It is interesting to me that deca reworked the nest to fix the exact problem I am speaking about, but now have a goal of pushing the same nest that most people hated or at the least refused to do except on a global scale. If you disagree with this or believe it is false, feel free to respond in the comments (as with all of my points of contention in this post) and I will try to be as active on the thread as possible so that we have a productive discussion which hopefully makes a positive change towards the pending changes. I could potentially go into more detail with bosses, but I will spare that for potential future discussion in this thread. Next, I would like to take a look at the melee targeting here. Let’s face it, this update is a direct melee nerf with little to no compensation, and I am genuinely confused as to why. Were melees some of the best classes in the game? Absolutely, but why does this require a nerfing? The addition of wismod as well as buffs to suffering classes was something that helped them catch up from their previously obsolete nature and were unanimously well received, so I do not understand why a similar approach is not being taken again. If other classes were buffed, it would go another long way towards balancing and also not ruin the feel or actual gameplay of group / other classes like I feel this nerf does. I have no understanding as to why they felt mitigation had to receive a 10% decrease, or why they had to ruin the power of basically every enemy debuff (which is a global nerf, not just one to melees, making these classes worse as well), as they will have very fringe use or be a shell of what they used to be with these changes (with little to no compensation) Paladin is basically its former self before the rework that made it good, warrior is being significantly nerfed, and knight I would argue is now an unviable class.
In regards to Vitmod, most of the time that immunity will not be useful as you will only be hit by that shot enough for it to apply between immunities, but on the whole I am glad to see vitality becoming a useful stat that is beneficial (although I do take issue in how weak it is, why do enemies get a 100% immunity while players require 75 to even get half of that (especially when only 3 classes meet 75 naturally and only 2 more are realistically eligible to get to 75)?
I apologize for my thoughts not being well collected, I am running dungeons as I am posting this and cannot pay full attention to it. I will do my best to remain active on the thread and I encourage all of you realmers to as well.

TL;DR

  • Basing bosses around debuff timers makes many bosses lose integrity
  • Massively nerfing group DPS makes many bosses lose integrity (see The Nest 1.0 as this is literally no different than if it was a small nest group then, as you are effectively cutting down the player size with this change)
  • Basing bosses around debuff timers allows for trolling to not only be very easy but potentially very impactful with the dps nerfs, especially in important locations like The Void
  • Classes should be buffed to compete with other classes, this has been done once and worked wonderfully. Now we are nerfing two out of viability (the paladin and knight) with the warrior seeing a fairly strong hit to it as well? Unless deca is just intending for the game to be pushed to WizardOTMG, I do not see how this is productive to any goal. (Please don’t nerf wizard just because I said that)

P.S: I do not consider “It is still in testing” or “It is part of a bigger class rework” as talking points and will not be responding to them, as it is very clear to see what direction this is being taken in and I have already produced alternative ideas for full class changes or etc.

And one final note I forgot to add, I do not see how a class being important to a group is a bad thing, and it is certainly not just the melees who fill this role. I am about done talking for my initial post, reply and discuss.