What if RotMG had no leveling?

#1

Recently I was reading a @Pxartist thread and it got me thinking. Why does RotMG even have a leveling system again?

What does the level up system add to the game?

An extra layer of bullshit RNG and anywhere from 10 minutes to 1+ hour wasted before being back to actually playing the interesting part of the game.

Rolling is bullshit because it’s something you have no control over. You don’t get better stat rolls based on what you do while leveling or anything, it’s just another pure RNG-fest that wastes your time arbitrarily.

It’s not so bad once you get rich and/or have other characters you can use to farm and feed the new one pots. But for newer players? or f2p players in general? well tough shit, gotta play with what you have or waste even more time rolling for a better character.

How would you guys improve this? Change the way leveling works? Remove it entirely? And how would it affect the rest of the game?

#2

If I’m right RotMG is MMO game, and main aspect of MMO games is leveling, upgrading your statistics by it etc. . Even tho most people don’t like it, leveling needs to be in it.

#3

I think the leveling system is very misleading. When I talk to some people who have played the game a little bit before they say. ‘Oh I got pretty far. I got to level 20 then stopped.’ They don’t realize that there is a whole bigger part of the game that they completely missed.

#4

False. The main aspect of MMO is Massive, Multiplayer (which for a bullet hell, rotmg is) and Online. Associating it with leveling is restricting the definition, hence restricting creativity. Leveling doesn’t need to be in it at all. Its common, but don’t confuse the two terms. (Im not saying leveling Shoudn’t be in it, just that we should consider not having it despite being radical for MMOs.)

as for OP, I too read pxartists’ thread about it. I kinda like the fact that for new players it is a main part of the game, so I think getting rid of leveling would be a bad idea. However, we could have a sort of ok-level and high-level. EG, the first twenty levels are unchanged, but the current “reach fame 20” up to 2000 would act as a level 20 to 25. In these five levels we don’t get stat increases, but max stat increases,
E.G, a level 20 knight may have a def cap of 30, but from leveling into 21 he has a max stat cap of 32. Hence, leveling becomes important to create the most powerful players, current gameplay isn’t affected too much, and pots retain their use.

#5

I think that making the change from leveling to non-leveling would be a rather big one, since it’s been an aspect of the game since…probably either launch, or very short thereafter.

I personally like how each character is a bit different from each, though. Just starting out at a set level with set stats is…boring. It limits you to just getting gear and pots, instead of a buildup to strength.
That said, how the game is very potion-heavy, I think increasing the gain of some stats per level would be a nice addition. Heck, maybe set it so your defense increases by 1 every 5th, 4th, or even 2nd level - some defense is mighty fine to have. 10 might be a little much, but I don’t see much wrong with 5 defense at level 20 as a base.
Makes it easier for newer players to not, like, die instantly when faced with tougher enemies whilst still having rather basic gear, yet not having gotten a single defense pot yet.

tl;dr;sb: against removing leveling as it’s a big part of the game, not against making leveling a more major part in getting higher stats by increasing gain per level.

#6

Let’s say that there is no leveling system anymore and your stats are rolled upon creating a new character.

Would that be worse than the current state of game in any way?

That’s already what the game is though. 99% of the main gameplay loop is grinding for pots and better/rarer gear.

Is it a main part of the game because they enjoy doing it? Or is it something they are forced to do before they can get to the meat of the game?

Of course the game would need some serious remaking, particularly in the enemy balancing department.

But I believe it would improve the game by removing needless stats rolling and making the realm a place that’s actually fun to explore instead of a ridiculously stretched-out no-man’s-land between the spawn points and the godlands.

#7

I have never understood the buzz about stat roll. I never care about stat roll. I just get my char to level 20 then pot em up. Except one time when I had a huntress with like -25 hp AND mp roll. I wasn’t down with that lol.

#8

Past a certain point, you always have other maxed characters that can farm pots so even a character with a shit roll can stay on the bench until it’s playable.

But what about all the players who aren’t quite there yet? Do you think they’re having fun playing on a 15 Spd Knight because RNGesus felt like fucking them over that day?

#9

i couldn’t speak for anyone else but I enjoyed* the “challenge” trying to get to a lvl twenty warrior or archer before dying when I was new.

*by this I mean I found it challenging and got quite excited, Although looking at it closer, it doesn’t mean i wouldn’t not enjoy it if we just spawned as a lvl 20 straight off, but it might not be as fun to new, petless players.

#10

here’s a thought: what if there was some way of integrating stat maxing with the leveling system?

say the first 5 levels can all be done with xp like normal, and gets you up to around level 15 in terms of the current system as far as stats go. once you get that far, you need a combination of xp and stats to reach the next level. you can’t increase your stats beyond your current level until you reach the next level, so leveling lets you drink more stat pots in addition to giving you a small stat boost. then once you reach level 20, the player will already be familiar enough with the stat pots to know that they need these to make the best character ever and will finish maxing the character themselves (which should be close to maxing several stats at this point anyway).

would this make things more interesting or more tedious? obviously the exact amount of xp needed to level up and how many stat pots are required to level up can be tweaked as well, but do you think there’s potential in a system like this?

#11

Yessss my point exactly.

Yeah now this is definitely a downside. But to be honest, rotmg has always been an extremely beginner unfriendly game. So for this reason, no leveling would benefit beginners a lot.

#12

Stu and Nevov have interesting ideas here

#13

I do agree leveling is kind of boring right now. I think that leveling should be and is geared towards newer players. As I said before, more engaging leveling bosses would make it so that players learn the game mechanics in a less stress-filled environment but also make leveling fun again to the veterans

I have a personal vendetta against Hives tho
why the fuck are they so hard and don’t give me that 'beginner dungeon" bullshit

#14

If there was no levelling and we began at lev20 with ave stats, after a week or two the same players who found levelling boring would start to think:

  • “Wow, playing unmaxed after I die is so boring, SPD is so slow and DPS is so low. What’s the point of going back to that, can’t we start off with like 2/8 stats or something”.
  • and then… “well maybe do away with maxing entirely what’s the point it’s just downtime, spawn in at 8/8 and lets gooo”.

You see where I’m going with this? Yes going back to the start is a pain but that has to be there as the yin to the yang of completing something endgamey. The game just couldn’t provide the highs without any lows.

It also acts to drive players to fear the noob state. Don’t die or you have to go level! :scream: And now you get your punishment for being too greedy and refusing to nexus. 10 minutes on the punishment step.

The RNG I see as part of the whole game, it’s all RNG - loot, portals, just go with the tides of whatever you’re sent. If RNG wasn’t in the game, like if all the bosses gave shards to stack up: 100=dbow yes I could see RNG rolls feeling out of place, but to not like endure RNG, is to not like Rotmg.

But when you say 1+ hour levelling, why would you even level for an hour? You can earn the pots to cancel a bad roll in a fraction of that time. Now tell the truth you enjoy fighting those Oasis Giants and Undead Hobbits really, as a change of pace don’t you. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway after saying all that I’ll fall back to my default, we’re being misled to the game’s true difficulty until cheat clients are done away with, so I wouldn’t really want much revolution until that’s sorted out. Being 8/8 should then be hopefully put back as an achievement to reach, not the default state for players.

Also, fix the <playername> has reached level 20 message! Give some positivity, gamechat!

#15

And you know what? They would be absolutely right. Actually good games don’t have this stupid notion of leveling. E.g. chess. Or a good shooter, anything tactical. It’s always fair and balanced fun.
Of course there’s a place for leveling and the like, where storytelling is more central to the gameplay. RPG, obviously. Is rotmg such a game? Hell no. It’s a stupid, litte shooter, even if non-competitive.

At his point, rotmg is a hot mess without clear direction, and many contradictory elements. There’s probably no getting back on track, but maybe future games take note of the mistakes (as if).

Fight me. 8)

#16

I feel like this is a point a lot of people missed. @Pxartist mentioned this, but the fact is that the game IS permadeath and it HAS consequences. People feel (forgive my inner Rubell) entitled to the loot they earned and the characters they stupidly died on. The game is permadeath. Don’t be stupid and you don’t have to level. (or buy those juicy leveling potions)

#17

Damn straight. What were they thinking when they made it - hey, let’s make these enemies deal 50 damage and come in multiple numbers against players who’ve only seen up to 32 damage with very slow moving shots so far?
Don’t even get me started on the boss and its larvae, yike.

#18

Not enough dps and you have enough bees to make the Bee Movie sequel.

#19

I see a slippery slope fallacy and not much else.

This isn’t about removing permadeath entirely. That’s another discussion.

It’s just that we already have a progression system in the form of farming for pots and better gear, so there’s no reason to have another, shittier progression system tacked on that does nothing but waste people’s time and stuff the game with pointless filler.

Permadeath is already extremely punishing as is. Adding leveling and rolling on top of it is just needlessly kicking people while they’re down.

Again you’re exaggerating my points. I’m not saying we should remove all RNG and grinding from the game, I’m saying there is such a thing as too much RNG and too little player agency.

You’re missing the point. This thread isn’t about me, it’s about the effects of leveling on all players.

Do you really think the average player can just put WC tops and a near-maxed Divine pet on their new lvl 1, drink an Exp Booster from their Gift Chests, then know exactly where to go in the realm to level up the fastest and how to survive there?

#20

I mean, it looks like you have a problem with the entire purpose of the game. You are making it sound like your problem is the rng with stats when leveling, “no control over”, as if you have control over other rng aspects of the game, like getting white bags. As i said, shouldn’t you hate the whole game then?