Changing up Ninja

#28

Not really. You still have something called dodge, and if you’re gonna give ninja the ability to go perma invisible you have to give him a motive to NOT do so everytime, since perma invisible is pretty OP after all (Rogues have CDs for a reason).
You can always rush without holding the key on dangerous zones (Like Oryx rooms on LH, yet you can use it on golem rooms or crusades)
Also it kinda fit the stereotype of ninja

#29

“Invisible and Stunned”

And there’s still that “Max Hold duration” idea I came up with when responding to RMGNoob.

#30

I’m just saying that even with stunned it’s pretty OP. Not being able to attack won’t hurt too much your ability to rush most dungeons (aside cdepths and some others like that), And max hold duration will just be: release the button->press again. Even if you add a CD for that you’ll just make a rogue lookalike and lose identity as a class, just a stunned rogue (And with rogue’s DPS, it’s not a big difference).

It doesn’t need to be armor break, but something that not only gives him balance as a class, but that also make people think about Ninja’s invisibility as something totally different than rogue’s one (Even Curse/exposed works, or a debuff applied after he releases the key since he’ll lose stunned)

Took a while since i was on a cult run

#31

Invisible and Stunned already limits your options and gives the Ninja a feeling as if he really is that: a Ninja.

If you’re hidden in a real situation, then attacking gives away your position, and that makes it stand on a logical standpoint. From a mechanical standpoint, you are not able to utilize your most vital function - which is high damage - until you let go of spacebar. This makes you have to choose between giving up your damage for an extended period of time, or for a select amount of time so you can get into a position that you can use effectively.

Besides, being able to rush dungeons with Invisible isn’t really an issue. Anyone can rush anything with any class as is, especially ones without Invisible. I’ve seen someone rush around a Lost Halls with a Priest before.

#32

Yes , please . Why does he even have 70 wisdom? He have same speed as sorc. Ninja is supposted to be fast by general .

#33

Nice. You just turned the ninja into a rogue.

#34

phenomenal comprehension skills

#35

If you still haven’t noticed, the Ninja is the only class that does not get to top numbers on stats (refer to colored stats on wiki’s classes page). The only ok change here would be the wisdom, but still not necessary.

I shouldn’t even need to comment, but really? 1600 average true damage on multiple targets?

As a last note, I recommend not adding infinite status effects on every class you try to balance or create, it’s not healthy dude, just stop.

The Ninja plays different from every single class in the game, a melee on leather armor, and that’s his major point. The speedy from the shuriken doesn’t make a lot of sense (what, it motivates you to go faster?) but a shuriken making you invisible makes even less sense. It’s just game balance to help it be a melee that’ll explode in a billion pieces when in contact with anything.

You need to take a lot more in consideration when you try to change/add anything in a game. Just try to do that, ok?

#36

And it’s probably the most dumb “specialty” that a class can have, having zero top stats.

With far more cooldown and much less range.

Invisible on a Ninja not making sense is like a Shield on a Knight not making sense. Ninjas are meant to be hidden, it’s something they’re known for. “a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.” (dictionary.com)

Which I did do. I didn’t just “OH INVISIBLE AND STUNNED”, I thought about how it would affect gameplay. The added damage to tiered stars I can maybe say I went somewhat overboard, but that’s one thing, and I’m fine with changing it. Everything else, though, I took into consideration.

#37

Dumb or not, it’s his specialty, if you play him enough you’ll understand why. Not great at everything, but not bad at anything, one of the classes with highest skill caps, if not the number one.

The cooldown is just enough for pets to regen all that mana, extra 800 permanent DPS for divine pet owners (like 1/5 DPS of an acclaim warrior, since people love to use it as basis). Not balancing something around pets is as bad as balancing around them only.
And considering the katana’s range is 4.75, won’t matter much if the shuriken’s range is 5 or 15. Sure, not always you’ll be that close, but range per damage trade out is far off decent.

Ah, yes, exactly what I said. Just because there is a ninja in the game, doesn’t mean he has to be hidden, they went with another trait, and that’s speed, ninjas are also known for being fast and deadly. Rogue is already playing the invisible role.

If you want this big of a defensive ability, being invisible (which renders you extremly safe, hence rogues almost hugging Cube Gods), then you haven’t considered his balance, which is insane damage output reaping through enemies by an extremely fast character but said character is easily exploded.

Only two characters bring more than one buff in their tiered abilities, Priest and Paladin, and neither of those deal as much damage as the Ninja (one has high damage, the other has pierce, Ninja has both) and neither of those go invisible.

It’s basic balance on our beloved Ninja, go ham or go home, miss me with that cloaking.

#38

This.

Anyways…

5 tiles can mean a lot if you want to make the most use of it, since you would have to be much closer to deal the damage. On top of that, the cooldown would matter whether you have a pet or not, since in 2 seconds you could be using 3 or 4 shurikens with no pet depending on your gear/consumables, and 3 for sure with a good pet. You miss out on 5 tiles and range and some overall damage due to much higher cooldown, in favor of more immediate damage.

I’ve heard this argument plenty. I’ll do a simplificiation of the point:
Rogue - Mainly uses invisible to deal damage safely.
Current Ninja - Uses Speedy for… going fast? Three other classes already do this.
This Ninja - Mainly uses invisible to sneak by or get into a proper position to attack.

It’s not a replacement or anything like that like people seem to think. The added Stunned makes you have to use it more sparingly around enemies that you need to damage, since you are not able to attack.

Rogues aren’t stunned while invisible.

This is one buff and one debuff to counter it being abused. What’s your point here?

#39

Small update to main post.

#40

Why not? What is it meant to be? Seems a perfectly fine class for me, melee weapon on leather armor takes quite some learning to be played correctly, 60 speed for combat is just fine and can go fast at will to escape situations, given you don’t run into something else with potato maneuvering (has happened to me quite a few times).

But invisibility would just destroy that learning curve. Need to escape? How about disappearing from existence and be able to sit on anything that doesn’t fire automatically and reappearing exactly when you want, way better than a timed rogue. It’s a full switch from offense to defense, and this isn’t good in terms of balance, our Ninja rushes in, deals damage and rushes back out, he’s not about easy survivability.

With that mp cost, this cooldown doesn’t mean anything. A petless player won’t bother with using it more than twice per battle, and one with a divine pet will regen just enough mana on that time.

Which is exactly why they have 75 speed, to be able to run and deal decent damage on the invisibility period. An invisible character with 75 speed is only good for rushing, you don’t want that much speed ruining your perfect positioning to set up an attack (just tapping your keyboard with 75 speed is a lot different from 60 speed).
On the same note, I’ll quote Seelpit directly, from another thread about the Ninja, about 75 speed and speedy with your change on Midnight Star:

Also, I seem to notice that there’s a trend among posts regarding a Ninja buff: 75 speed.
I really don’t understand this - 60 spd is perfectly in the middle. You’re not as fast as a dagger class because of your Star’s Speedy bonus, which is a compensation of some kind for that.
60 speed allows for agile movement that gives you an edge, but doesn’t send you flying into the sun if you hold down that A key for more than 0,2-19561396713976 milliseconds.
Ninja is kinda bad, so let's fix it

And since these arguments aren’t being enough coming from me, let us hear it directly from you, on the same thread as the quote above:

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#41

May 3

not even gonna bother past that.

#42

You can’t even explain what changed since then?

#43

I for one think that the ninja is fine the way it is. Sure, not having the highest stat anywhere makes it seem bland at the first glance, but once you take a closer look and get a better understanding of the class, the fact that it doesn’t beat other classes out in other areas doesn’t matter so much. This is because the ninja’s stats tend to be high across the board, with above-average stats in dex, atk, spd and wis. This leads to a unique, well-rounded mixture that other classes simply don’t have. The ninja is fast, deals a lot of damage, and recovers his mp quickly, without ever really overdoing it.

The star, as it is, is amazing. Sure, they (usually) don’t pierce targets, but that is a simple factor to work around with a little practice in aiming and timing your shots. Piercing is largely unnecessary, and would only serve to make the class more overpowered. The speedy currently provided by stars gives a character without a pet about 25 seconds of being one of the fastest things around, and a player with a good pet the same status as long as desired. It’s awesome.

Looking at both the proposed stat changes and alterations to the star, I think one thing: dagger class. Changes to these stats make the ninja a trickster with a different ability, and repeats in-game are generally looked down upon (hence why huntress is viewed simply as an inferior archer). I suggest if any reworks are to be made to the stats (which I do not presently support), it would be to something we haven’t already seen. The ninja right now is one of my favorite classes because it’s such a unique class. These changes only make it more similar to classes that already exist.

The star (as I previously mentioned) doesn’t need to pierce, and the damage is fine as it is. I don’t need to create a line of death and destruction through minions when I am fighting O2; I only need to hit the boss, and that is powerful enough. As for the ability’s status effects, I think (again): dagger class. While you would be stunned while invisible when using the star here, I still think it takes away from the rogue’s gimmick a little too much. The only thing here is that you get to be invisible for as long as you need, which arguably makes this ninja a better rogue (in terms of invisibility length, along with a similar spd stat) in most scenarios. It can be argued that the stunned effect has a large impact, but it’s too little to not eclipse the cloak user.

Finally, a point that I have seen in multiple spots in this thread: these changes will make a ninja more like what a ninja should be. Yes, the (non-glorified by present day media) ninja was a warrior that was trained for assassination and covert stealth missions, but that isn’t what it’s become. We now think of them as amazing fighters (high dps?..) who are nearly untouchable through their extreme agility and speed (speedy, anyone?). Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. If Realm classes were based so heavily on what the characters were like in actuality or even in literature, wizards would be wise intellectuals who could use spells to change the world around them, not gods of destruction. Necromancers would summon armies of the undead, not convert an enemy’s strength into their own. Knight’s shields would only protect them from attacks, not stun enemies. The list goes on and on.

Ninja’s fine right where it is.

#44

Something I feel a lot of people fail to understand about the ninja is it’s the speed that kills it. It wouldn’t be seen as such a bad class by so many players if everyone would learn to slow down and play it like a ranged class instead of going speedy tank everywhere.

Edit: Imo keep 60 speed and still remove speedy from the star.

#45

No.
Give one reason why this would be smart. You’re literally suggesting a direct nerf for no reason

#46

He was just saying to keep my suggestion but not change the Speed stat.

#47

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