Lost Halls isn't a great dungeon...


#61

I think the real issue is that the way the loot system works has never been properly communicated to the players. This game has been released almost a decade ago and the majority of players probably still believe that “more damage=more loot” and “less people=more loot”.

That second part is responsible for a considerable amount of griefing all by itself.

It’s not specific to LH, but it still needs to be addressed at some point or you’re going to have the exact same problem with every single endgame dungeon you try to push out.

That’s assuming there’s no limit to map size. Considering all the technical problems this game has, that’s a pretty bold assumption to make.


#62

I… for once, actually agree w/ you here. Running shatters casually and getting a 0/3 was fucking awful. It’s too bad I can’t be arsed to care about trading because anything I want I’ll throw up an offer on realmeye and someone may or may not respond to it and that’ll be the extent of pretty much all the trading I’ll ever do. I’ll disagree w/ your idea that whites that people need to be of particular use in halls are just that rare, but that’s w/ my own cherry-picked stats being, well… sorta ok I guess? 2 QoTs (drops have been sorta shit for me), no ogmurs (except one from that one cursed ice cave event), more than a few puris (altho I went through like, at least 50 some manors before any started dropping), and… yeah.

Whites from Halls aren’t that common on a per run basis, but you have to remember that some people are doing up to a few dozen of these dungeons a day, while most others who want them can still do a dozen of these /day w/ relative ease. T14 armors… errmm, from my experience overall (some 250 halls completions by now? heck, I don’t know how to look it up), if you learn how to do it and not die every other run (this is the impression I get reading your comments btw), these are a fairly common drop already.


#63

I doubt there would be any problem with the map size, have you seen how enormous a Realm is. Halls and Hideout being in the same map would be roughly 1/2 a Realm, likely less.

About technical problems, the new LoD in testing has the teleportation mechanic, basically from the spawn you go into a dragon portal, and the only way to go back is killing that dragon, which spawns a portal back into the spawn, and so far there hasn’t been any problem with that mechanic (as far im aware of)


#64

Here’s the difference: if you max out memory and get disconnected, there will almost always be a realm when you go back. Get DC’d from a LH however and it’s back to the bazaar or realm-hopping for Sentries.

Here’s the other difference: how often do you have to clear an entire realm?

Unless I’m mistaken the first instance of that mechanic was Santa’s Workshop, so it’s not exactly a new thing. I never said there would be a problem with that part of your idea anyway.


#65

LH shares a few things with other content like Nest that makes public runs liable to failure:

  1. Minions have too high HP/too severe HP scale. This means anyone who isn’t contributing to DPS (by rushing, leeching, laziness, noobiness) is a net negative, actively making these dungeons worse for those doing the fighting, and worse if you’re split up, so you are compelled to join the majority in a clump or you’re screwed (not just LH that has this; hell, did you even try clearing through a WC these days to help that one 0/8 newb in #myfirstWC? Lucky if you can before O2 dies, the minions are so bloated). It also makes it impossible for anyone unlucky enough to be stranded the wrong side of everyone else, related to:

  2. TP disallowment. This works fine in Shatters/Castle/WC/Thicket where it’s a static known map and sequential progression, but LH and Nest both involve exploring, so TP should be allowed. Imagine a no-TP tomb, it would be horrendous. Yet tomb was the endgame of its time. TP means freedom to do a dungeon however the group wishes: rushers can rush without needing the crutch of cheating, while the clearers can clear not worrying they’ll miss out. Enable TP in LH (and Nest), which also means that:

  1. The boss room loses its default locking-in mechanic. This would normalise MBC (& KBQ) to how the rest of Realm dungeons operate. Possibly some redesign of the fight for this now far easier mode, but with a critical twist…:

  2. Add in the BUFFING MECHANIC to control locking the room. If the threshold is hit, the room DOES lock in with the wall to get to the fight like now, and gives the group that epic fight they deserve, and as reward: make it do double drop rates vs easymode, or only access certain wbs in buff mode (like how QoT is). Then a powerful group gets rewarded, there is motivation to buff, small group/soloer can still complete the ‘easy mode’ gaining experience of the boss to develop into future fights on hard mode, and a group that gets shrunken by a bad crusade/sentry needn’t give up just because “the paladins nexused”, a win-win scenario.

So you can still get the same experience as now if you enjoy the raid style follow-the-leader Discord organised thing, and the tough boss. The TP-ing would even give more tactics to the raid organisers since you could pre-split into teams and follow your own lieutenant when there is a junction in the map, and TP when ordered for MBC time for the buffed (normal) locked-in boss. But easymode would add that bridge and not make it just Cultist Vestibule as all public LHs seem to be.

tl;dr: make bosses buffable for easy/hardmode, enable TP, lessen the minion HP and HP scale. Yeah, maybe pretty radical ideas but hey talk is cheap isn’t it. :stuck_out_tongue:


#66

But isn’t the Tomb the poster child of why allowing teleportation makes public runs less cooperative? People just sit in the spawn room and wait for a few people to do the dirty work. If everyone could just leech in the spawn room in the LH, that’s exactly what they’d do. This would make the HP scaling far more unbearable for the few people who put in effort to get through the dungeon and diminish one of the dungeon’s main points.

As for the boss room, there are two issues. First, allowing people to fully retreat will always drastically reduce its threat level. Look at Dr. Terrible. Three of his four gas spawners are active during his vulnerable phases, but the more optional strategy is to just back in and out of the entry hallway, safely avoiding just about everything and then simply waiting out his minion spawn phase. This means that the only way a remotely competent player can or will die against these bosses is through instant kills, as seen in late game content with open boss rooms like O2 or the Tomb (or for a more local example, the Cultist Hideout, which does allow teleportation).

Second, if you can teleport with a boss room that does shut, you can potentially all teleport to the other side for safety, effectively making the room not really shut at all as long as you have an anchor (which Discords would immediately adapt to and abuse). Furthermore, if everybody teleported to the safe side, the room would now be shut with no way back in. Teleportation reduces cooperation by putting the burden of the dungeon on a single person, and not enclosing a boss makes it incapable of posing a threat to people through any means other than cheap instakills.


#67

Isn’t there be a way to disable teleportation after a certain point? like for example, deactivating it when you enter MBC boss room? That would theoretically prevent people from Teleporting out of the locked room while still allowing Teleportation for the rest of the dungeon.


#68

Think about it this way: in Tomb, Rogue is useful for rushing and dealing with rages while everyone else is useful for clearing Sarcs, taking the bosses’ aggro and dealing with the artifacts and scarabs they spawn.

In Shatters, Nest and LH, what’s the point of having a Rogue? 99.9% of the time he’s either not gonna do shit or he’ll rush and fuck everything up for everyone else.

It’s not only a problem with the Rogue, he’s just the one getting shafted the hardest, but by removing teleport and making the path lock at certain intervals you’re effectively making the act of rushing itself toxic by default.


#69

You’re right, rushing has a much more negative connotation in endgame dungeons. The Tomb probably wasn’t the most clear example of rushing being anti-coop either, since it’s compounded by the fact that the real bosses are in the spawn room to begin with. But to that end, I think it’s worth asking: Should rushing have a place in the endgame? Or at the very least, should it work the same way people currently think of it?

As of now, rushing is defined by skipping the main part of the dungeon to get yourself and the rest of your party straight to the boss, skipping a great deal of the content and saving people time/effort. In midgame dungeons like the OT, the rusher is cutting out rooms and monsters that pose little threat or engagement to the group (though it’s worth noting that despite this, people will often loiter in the spawn room waiting for something to happen for upwards of a minute even if there clearly isn’t anybody willing to rush).

In endgame content, however, cutting out that much content would be removing a significant portion of the intended content and challenge. The unspoken rule of thumb is that if a dungeon is even remotely capable of being rushed and there is something to be gained by doing it, people will rush it and come to never expect needing to get through it as a group.

Rushing, at its core, is an effort made usually by a single person to skip the bulk of a dungeon and causing everyone to reap the benefits. So for that reason, I think it is important to consider how rushing could potentially play a role in endgame dungeons without also skipping major chunks of content and creating an expectation of always waiting for one person to do the it for you.

I do think a compelling middle ground could be reached here, at least in the case of predetermined dungeons like the Shatters. Let’s take a hypothetical Shatters rework where the dungeon is actually coherent, imaging the middle section has a number of interesting challenges to overcome in order to reach the switches in each room. For example, say the first path is a long dining hall followed by a bedroom connected at the other end with a miniboss guarding the switch.

One interesting design choice would be to include a disabled teleportation pad right outside the entrance to the dining hall, which could then be activated by shooting a target in a small safe room connecting the dining hall and the bedroom (maybe even with a small, optional side challenge of its own to activate the teleporter). A Rogue or other capable rusher could take the risky move of charging through the dining hall. If he succeeds, he could activate the switch and spare his party from the dangers of the dining hall.

I realize this has become a long-winded response, but my main point is that rushing is currently too much of an all-or-nothing ordeal. If it’s possible, that typically means that you’re able to skip at least 3/4ths of the entire dungeon’s content, which runs contrary to the type of experience an endgame raid-like dungeon should be presenting. If endgame dungeons integrate opportunities where rushers can uniquely help with getting past portions of lethal challenges without effectively removing every factor aside from the boss, it could give them an endgame purpose without making them overpowered or essential.


#70

People will oppose this. Halls discords are willing to do skip runs that result in dozens of deaths in order to save 2 minutes.

Also I would like to say that Cuckson has logged his drops from the last 80 mbc and void. He said that he got 1 marble seal and 1 potato.

So void definitely doesn’t have the great drops people are raving about.


#71

Your assessment of leeching mentality is right, once a dungeon is perceived as ‘rushable’, some players will then always wait for a rusher to do the thing as a default tactic. I would say this highlights when a dungeon doesn’t hold enough intrinsic interest to the players – they only care about the boss. Examples: OT, which holds nothing except fragments of XP, with some threat a clearer could even fail (paralyse pony) =>people leech. Theatre, less so because people can at least look for the T-rooms and the paths are much more split.

Ultimately people leech when their assessment informs them that there’s nothing of value on the minions to deserve their effort. Though certainly XP can be a sweetner not to leech—cf. Parasites.

Icave The Ice Cave rework handled this amazingly, taking a dungeon that was massively leeched, and dissolving that by making it a single trail to follow rather than a branching path, but watch your step! can’t just run blind, and hiking the XP to make it “more fool you” if you don’t bother moving. So the lazy are punished but in a non-intrusive way for the others. And rushers certainly still can rush it, but it’s pointless because of the need to kill the enemies. They also deprive themselves out of the XP.

If designer actively wants a thing to be rushable, it can be made so: undodgeable quiet/pet stasis/slow and/or walls between the rooms. As Castle has shown, where now it’s only the really weak/inexperienced who would miss the guards, unlike in old iterations, and even its event chest is v.v.rare a wing misses it. Or the right mix of enemies & effects to make rushing actually tough. Tomb had this (before pets only a really skilled player would rush) and CDepths (before so many people got Divines). Even WC the meta for the longest time was to clear since rushing failed so often, & people don’t like to fail. Unfortunately it’s intertwined with cheatclient since the pain of a death doesn’t hit them like it is designed to, and they lose the death-threat-disincentive that is so critical to Rotmg’s game balance & difficulty.

LH So in relation to LH: I would say if you want the rooms to be viewed as more than intermediary filler, give them some function/purpose, could be required kills to progress like Ice Cave has, or they affect the boss like Parasite does so a full clear gets an easier fight, or be some type of switch like Shatts. Alternately offer something unique, like how the golem rooms have the Trickster ST items there could be Oryx-themed items in the Oryx rooms, etc, or longlasting consumables that can’t be taken out of the instance so fighters are buffed in relation to the lazy. Or mini-vials that unlock some shortcut or other thing. Give a reason to participate that overcomes a temptation to leech and players will respond.

…though Shatts leeching pre-2nd shows that we have the community that we do, and some people will take any excuse for a lazybreak.

This is why minion HP scale has to be done wisely, since if there’s no incentive to kill them, anyone who tries is hamstrung by everyone else ignoring it.


About teleporting pros and cons, the points you make are certainly true, though they’re not to me reasons in and of themselves – if the boss is derpfailed by all TPing out, or if ppl choose to leech and miss some juicy XP, then “haha” to them, even moreso if there’s loot on the way they miss out on – and were a voicechat group to be organised enough to sort a rotation where people TP in, do a portion of the fight and then TP out, kudos to them for being so professional about it, and that’s the kinda thing that the raider-types would love organising, I guess.

I’m taking a long way to say TP is not something that’s good or bad in itself, just you get the outcome based on the design, and TP-disallow inevitably leads to the clump effect where players stay in the big group for fear of missing out. High minion HP scale also leads to clumping since it’s usually inefficient to split up groups. Both features together curtail a lot of player freedom in these dungeons compared to others and punishes hard the disorganised which is what pub runs by definition usually are.

Ah it is complicated intertwined issues after all! Sometimes they do take a lot of words to talk about. S’why it’ll really come down to designer’s vision since you could listen to 500 people who’d each have a different shopping list of things.

I suppose they have a niche vs enemies that use directed attacks, so the rogue can cloak and hit em while they’re focusing aggro on the group, unfortunately you’ll have that hurdur melee with high pet who’ll try and hero it. Like we’re seeing more of in shatters where instead of letting the rogue go and do the switch a couple of others follow in as well out of ego/impatience/whatever. Maybe if an enemy had meatshields minions that alternate vuln/invuln, and move to cover the direction of sighted enemies, but allow rogue to do dmg unhindered (is this kinda how crusade works?? I’m not the most experienced, never been in LH on a rogue in actual fact. :smiley: ).


#73

For me it’s just the loot drop rates that took the fun from doing this dungeon. I liked doing LH, but the fact that I had to do so many to get one white bag, doesn’t compensate for me. Doing 100 voids and only getting one white from void doesn’t make any sense, considering a discord LH run takes 20 minutes. This not even considering some failled attemps by dcs or need to nexus or even deaths.

I have done 20 (maybe more, but less than 30, for sure) Cults and got 4 whites already… like that doens’t make any sense.

Even event whites are more common than void whites, for me.

But don’t nerf the dungeon. There is no need for that. Maybe just make minions sprite bigger.

The dungeon is pretty well designed.

It was Deca fault to make the dungeon money grabbing and so unfair in the drop rates.


#74

I think void needs a rework, or could use one. Atm it’s a pretty boring boss fight without many unique mechanics. All the phases are the same basiclly, just more shots once he splits up.


#75

aren’t all companies “money-grubbing”? I’m not advocating for communism here, I’m just trying to point out that w/o any financial incentive, you very rarely get innovation, and much more to the point, I reckon that the only time this community would even get close to agreeing the game was “alive” was when it was on financial life support.

I’d want to make money on anything I invest large amounts of time into something, wouldn’t you? It’s not optimal, but I’d argue it’s a… necessary evil, for lack of a better term.


#76

Yeah because he doesn’t nexus
Most people don’t need to because hp pots + actually dodging

Halls can be done with as little as 2 people, but done comfortably with around 14.

Stop complaining. Just because you can’t do them, it doesn’t mean nobody else can.

Because keys are just better.
The people who would do the halls are busy doing discord runs, just because keys are better.

Keys =/= dungeon is bad.

There are literal discords for hunting down sentries and nests.
I suggest that before you make comments on anything you do some research and stop making rash claims without evidence.

You’re like a flat earther but for a video game

Careful with the word “impossible”.
SBC does runs with 8-20 people.

what the fuck kind of halls discord are you doing?

0/8 and friends halls?

The only halls that I’ve seen remotely close to a dozen deaths was back when you could stasis MBC tentacles.

2 minutes saved? more like 5-10 minutes

I think you’re just unlucky, I’ve done around 400 voids now, 100 in 2.0, and I’ve gotten < insert flex here >

I forgot < and > around things make it html code lol


#77

you have gotten blank?? how lucky!


#78

True. But even if that is a necessary evil, it doesn’t negates the effect on LHs becoming boring and not fun anymore, because of the reasons I mentioned.

Also, if I’m unlucky with voids, that at least make the experience unpleasent for me, because of the feeling that I always feel that I won’t get anything soon from Voids or MBC.


#79

I’m pretty sure if you constantly ran another dungeon with key pops, and I mean to the extent similar to lhs discords then you’d feel pretty negatively towards those as well.


#80

Yes, if I don’t get decent loot.
But at least, no other dungeons has crappy drop rates, in my experience. Got 8 scepters 2 spells 2 st poisons 2 tomes, 3 st rings and 1 st wand from parasite chambers events, a couple of months ago. How many have I run? Not even 200 xD

Oh and 2 skins

LH event, 2 or 3 weeks ago: 0 whites
That for sure means Deca made drop rates a pain to even want to know.

That being said, I don’t get bored from other dungeons, because I get what I should get. Maybe more than I should (looking for parasite event).

Ps: I also got 1 st armor from parasite event


#81

A lot of people haven’t brought up the life/mana rate of LH when discussing whether or not it is worth running for loot (or say that life has become so devalued that it is not much of a reward any more), when LH itself (and even “better”, the LH events) is a major contributing factor towards life and mana being as devalued as they are nowadays compared to before its release.