Ninja is kinda bad, and my first rework was even worse, so let's fix them

#1

First, I’d like to apologize for the first one.

I didn’t make it clear what I wanted, and I made last second decisions that were… questionable cough cough piercing shurikens cough cough. What I wanted from this class was basically a glass cannon warrior, (I may be making my own custom class with a leather armor and sword, but idk)

Second, I’d like to thank you guys.

You guys pointed out all my mistakes, and that led to this post. So, here it is.

~

Ninja Rework:

Base Stats:
Dexterity Increased from 70 to 75

WHY: Slight edge on damage

Katana:

Damage Multiplier before:
Damage Multiplier if Weak = 0.5
Damage Multiplier normal = 0.5 + ATT / 50
Damage Multiplier with Damaging = Normal * 1.5
(you multiply the damage multiplier by the weapon damage
range)

Damage Multiplier after:
Damage Multiplier if Weak = 0.5
Damage Multiplier normal = 0.5 + ATT + (DEX / 2) / 50
Damage Multiplier with Damaging = Normal * 1.5

WHY: More damage, to make him even (or higher) to a warrior

(all) Shurikens:

NEW ACTIVE: Damage Addition: SPD * 2
(SPD is maximum speed reached while you were speedy)

WHY: Rewards you for going fast

~

Yep. That’s it.

Literally everything else from my other post everyone told me they didn’t like, and that’s for good reason.

STUFF I REMOVED:

Katanas don’t pierce
WHY: Too similar to sword

Shurikens Pierce:
WHY: Busted

Speed from 60 to 75
WHY: Too hard to control

Accessories boosted by 50%
WHY: Busted with HP/MP Rings.

STUFF YOU GUYS (thankfully) NEVER SAW

Shurikens give beserk and speed
WHY: Literally Warrior.

Shurikens Scale with Dex, Spd, and Wis.
WHY: That’s a lot of damage. Plus Dex would be too op

Dex and Atk Add for damage on Katana:
WHY: That’s too much damage Plus Dex op

Speed boosts stack when speedy:
WHY: “I have a ninja, 16 speed sprouts, and a dream.”

That’s it, I hope this is 1,000,000 times better than the last

How to re-work ninja properly
#2

Won’t make that much of a difference.

As fancy as making formulas for everything might look, it’s all information the average player would have no way of figuring out on his own without looking at a wiki page.

Also shouldn’t it be 0.5+(Att+(Dex/2)/50) ?

So if I’m understanding this right, you want the damage on Stars to scale with Spd?

That does follow the current trend of adding scaling on Abilities, but in your case it’s a bit more confusing because the scaling is affected by Speedy, whereas Wis modifiers are only affected by flat bonuses.

What this means is that the way your scaling works, again, isn’t going to be immediately understandable by players who don’t want to read wiki pages all the time.

This isn’t a rework, just a straight buff across the board.

And just like your previous thread it’s completely unnecessary.

I’ll ask again: why are you so eager to change a class you’ve never played? You’ve been playing this game for a week, maybe you should try out more things and gain more experience before deciding what needs to be changed.

#3

Give him a break, at least he reckognizes his faults

#4

I’m not trying to shit on him as a person, I’m just tired of seeing people look at this game as if it’s a Cookie Clicker clone and maths are all there is to it.

I’m just asking a simple question here: how is this making Ninja more interesting/fun to play?

#5

Wtf why are you making it more similar to a sword then.

I don’t think this is even possible

What?

Overall your post itself is confusing to follow.

#6

Speed sprouts don’t stack at all… They just give speedy, and speedy is a status effect. Status effects don’t stack.

#7

Just want to point out, it’s probably impossible to change how you calculate damage for only one class. The damage calculator works the same for every class and thus is probably a universal system that is very hard to change without changing everything.
Also I don’t really think this is a good idea anyway, the ninja doesn’t really need it, and it’s a bit OP.

#8

That’s stuff i removed lol

#9

I feel like Ninja is really fun to play, I just feel he needs a slight edge to be viable. I know my opinion isn’t very important, considering I am a blue star, but I asked some streamers, and they all agreed it was bad.

#10

There are white stars in this game that fame farmed Ninja to 5 stars and never actually played it before or since.

Stars aren’t relevant to this argument.

Any dumbass can make a Youtube or Twitch channel and fuck around on it.

That’s not relevant to this argument either.

The reason why I don’t like your idea is because it looks like you just compared Ninja to Warrior on a DPS calculator and then tried to come up with ways to reduce the gap between their two DPS graphs.

This first impression was then confirmed by taking a look at your star and account, which does seem to show a distinct lack of experience with Ninja and especially maxed Ninja.

I’m not dissing you for being a newer player, I’m trying to explain to you that you being new makes you less prepared for balancing discussions and that you should give classes a chance before calling them “bad”.

(not to mention Ninja was already reworked not that long ago, with tiered Katanas getting not only higher damage but also longer range as well).

#11

I see you’re back at it again, sir.

As RMGnoob has said, and we both agree on this (and are saying it again), you don’t have enough game experience. No opinions are to be instantly disregarded, but they need to come with their own value, not have an increased/diminished value because of a “new player” or “streamer” tag attached to it.

Since I did not thoroughly comment on the last one, I shall do so now to see it I can get you to experience the game much more before attempting to rebalance/rework stuff.

Starting with:

This is actually something special about the Ninja that people don’t seem to realize at first (or at all).
The Ninja is the only character that does not “max” a single stat, and by “max” I mean not reaching a top value. A quick look at the characters’ max stats chart should make this simple:


image
image.png861x592 23.9 KB

Ninja is the only class to not have a colored stat, he does not win on any single-stat analysis, there will be always a character with a better maxed stat.
(For example, Ninja loses on HP value to the 3 heavy armor users, loses on MP value to the 5 robe users, loses on SPD and DEX to the other leather armor users, so on and so forth).

This means that the Ninja is the “average” class, being able to have a positive outcome on most (if not all) situations of the game by himself.
This is his main source of power, Ninja is the Jack of All Trades.

That explained, since 5 dexterity isn’t much relevant, Ninja should stay at 70.


Next:

While this should be easy to code as a specialty for the Ninja above all classes (if Wild Shadow made a non-spaghetti code, my inner belief), it is unnecessary for both game consistency and understandability (again, pointed by RMGnoob) AND for the Ninja’s need.

With this new formula, a maxed Ninja would calculate like this:
Damage = 157.5 (Masamune’s average damage) * (0.5 + (70 + 35)/50)
Damage = 157.5 * (0.5 + 2.1) = 157.5 * 2.6
Damage = 409.5
400 damage for each strike slicing through multiple enemies.

Players repeatedly compare all classes to the Warrior’s DPS, but they are comparing against an expertise: a 75 attack, berserker and sword wielder (hardest hitting weapon, save for a few UTs) unit. The Ninja does not need to deal as much damage, because the Katana pierces. And whenever you’re hitting more than one enemy, it’s a LOT of damage.
Ninjas strike multiple enemies at once, Warriors don’t, remember that.

And finally:

Two points to note here.
First one, SPD mod in the game is not a thing, we have WIS mod for that and that affected considerably weak or mostly unused classes in the game (like priest and Mystic).
Second one, that is an ACTUAL LOT OF DAMAGE. If it was only his speed stat, that would be maybe debatable, but being the speed when speedy is a lot more. If you check the wiki on speedy (https://www.realmeye.com/wiki/status-effects), you’ll see that it would be around +230 damage (with maxed speed, 60) on shurikens, and they already deal a great amount of damage (refer to picture).

image

Wind Circle would deal almost as much damage as the current Doom Circle, and imagine the new Doom Circle dealing 1130 damage.

And actually a third note here, you said it yourself that DEX would have been too much, but it’s only 10 points (around 25 damage) behind your final decision on using speed, which sounds inconsistent since you were up to granting the Ninja +70% weapon damage by adding DEX on his damage formula.

I hope this was a good review on these changes, and again I say that this is not supposed to sound rude or angry/mad/whatever-negative-feeling in the slightest. As an experienced potato, it is my duty to share my knowledge with you, the new potato.

Props to RMGnoob for also being a good experienced potato.

#12

The only change I agree with that you suggested was the DEX increase, although Ninja doesn’t really need it. Sure, he’s weaker than Warrior from the standpoint of sheer DPS, but, other than a staff class using an EP, which class isn’t weaker than Warrior?

Let’s ignore Warrior for a little bit. Ninja’s DPS is actually fairly competitive with the likes of Archer and Wizard as-is. Maybe a bit weaker starting on 0 DEF enemies, but his advantage comes into play against high-def enemies. Equipping the three classes with the tiered tops and UB Dex, Ninja gains over Archer at 12 defense, and over Wizard at 29, the latter class also being rather hard to outdamage anyways.

The DEX buff you suggest would be nice and all, and it’s an argument I would have made, but consider how the balance of the game would be affected. Katana damage scales with tier increments more than any other weapon in the game; the damage difference between Ichi and Mura, and between Mura and Masa, is absolutely absurd for a single tier. Just 5 extra DEX means Ninja would have an edge over Archer at only 2 DEF, and that would be a bit too overpowered to be capable of that with a 1.25 tile edge (tiered bows have a true range of 3.56, according to Pfiffel’s DPS calculator). My point of this wall of text here, is that Ninja doesn’t necessarily need his stats to be buffed. I think, and many will be with me on this, that the class is fine as-is.

I’m not gonna touch your other suggestions with a 20 foot pole. I didn’t bother posting on the last one because I figured I’d only be fanning the flames.

#13

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