PT: Classes balancing part 1, Gigantic Cave(Fungal Forest + Crystal Cave), LoD, LoS


#162

The rock centipede fight was intense and amazing, and I appreciate the counterplay available with mystic. It does trivialise the fight to an extent, as I was able to duo it first time with a rogue (I’m an awful mystic), however I can see this was an intentional design choice as the boss becomes immune at certain points. Maybe the stasis immunity wasn’t properly activating for the full duration. Either way, some of the most fun I’ve had in realm. Well done.

Just my two cents on the melees, although this seems to have been said: the level of attachment people have to keeping these classes above the power curve of the game - ‘barely worth picking over other classes’ - hints at this weird notion that warrior and pally SHOULD be significantly more worth picking than any other class. This undermines the idea of class balance - no class should be superior in a majority of situations - and Deca definitely seems to be leaning in this direction, for example with the aforementioned mystic counterplay.

People seem to be upset that warrior and pally might no longer be the best classes, which is understandable but also probably necessary. That being said, it’s a numbers game : Rotmg isn’t as complex as a game with delicate balance like LoL for example, and if 1.5x is too much, and 1.2x turns out to be too little, then it’s up to Deca to find a happy middle ground, which I trust they will.

Keep in mind that Deca is trying out these things for a reason, they don’t just pull numbers out of thin air, even if the way these changes are listed suggest that. Maybe some flavour text with updates, explaining the change would help alleviate these doubts.


#163

Yes, but what happens when they can’t anymore?


#164

This is getting off topic. We should continue this somewhere else.


#165

Have you tried doing a sewer yet? Thats something that should be looked into. Ive done a test in the mad lab which proved that going from green liquid to blue to green again quickly will NOT grant immunity to the debuffs. This is a mechanic of the dungeon, so I think sewers should be safe (though it should still be tested).
If it doesn’t work in sewers, that brings up another question: does itnwork in labs because the blue liquid acts somewhat like a puri? If so, would puri-ing reset your immunity timer?


#166

Now he’s the guy defending LH hardcore farming? Seems like this man is very confused.

I clearly said in my post Halls is barely worth doing as it currently stands.

Halls is really only worth doing because of the fame it provides.

The t14 armors are not common.
The t13 weapons are very rare.
The whites are rare and you struggle to get the white you want.

I think it’s perfectly fine if people are doing halls in the hopes of getting an omni. But let’s be real, Halls is basically the fame train replacement and I do halls regularly just for quick and organized fame.

So then nerfing them won’t fuck farmers over, since they have much better classes to play?

There are many ways to rank classes in rotmg. I view classes in terms of risk and reward.

Melee classes are high risk high reward classes.

They deal lots of damage. They have great buffs.

But no experienced player is going to sit there and tell you that melee is great for the tomb event.

I’m literally repeating myself here, but to play a melee you actually need to have appropriate boss knowledge.

Pretty much every single high level boss has anti melee phases. You need to know the boss and know when to back it up to succeed as a melee.

There are plenty of examples where an ogmur knight dies to septavius (yes ogmur’s not useful in udl) or a jug warrior dies to the statues.

If you sit on things in rotmg (or things sit on you) it doesn’t matter how much def you have they will kill you.

Compare this to a priest where it’s nearly impossible to be one shot by anything at 9 range.

Do I think melees are essential? Absolutely!
Do they provide the buffs necessary to do organized group runs? Absolutely!

But, if I really want to survive a new dungeon or a hard dungeon, will I personally use them? No way.

I’m grateful to all the people that like melee and play as melee. But there’s a huge difference between a knight successfully stunning a crusade commander and the wizard sitting in the middle of the pack just shooting at the commander. If the knight misses he’s toast. If the knight misses the wizard is perfectly fine.


#167

on the lower def cap for enemies, I don’t think people realize that this is only gonna apply to like, tormented golems and the nightmare colony when they aren’t armorbroken…


#168

Hell yes.

Aren’t you guys, like, supposed to go fix fake Email bans and add stasis indicator or something?

time to ditch pally?

Simply saying this : No. just nerf basic stats on characters.

...Why?

First things first, Making the fight harder doesn’t make it more fun.
People aren’t leaving because the ‘game is too easy and boring’ thing, they leave because of “I have literally nothing i want to do” thing. Please don’t make shitty mistake like Maplestory2 did where you just buff dungeons and think players will be more satisfied, just add more QoL changes or add more contents ‘that will actually be relatable for a long time’.

I mean, I get it, “hey ark, but imagine oryx just permastunned not being able to do anything and all that, or something like cult bosses all just stunned!”
Yes, I get that point, but if you think about it :

  1. We can just add more stun immune to mobs like that.
  2. For good players, decent players, even those who are just slightly experienced, MOST phases that can be prevented with stun aren’t that hard to dodge. Come on, people can do Oryx chicken without problem, what’s too wrong about Oryx1? Forgotten archmage from Shatters? Who cares? you can literally just circle since their first phase shots are slower than 1.0 Lost halls flame.
  3. This immunity thingy better have indicator, I sWeAR tO GOD. I don’t wanna count 9 seconds thinking it’s 3 sec paralyze just to realize it was something shitty like midnight star, and I’m not gonna count how long it was, I doubt anyone will, So they would be discouraged from going into oryx or some shit, since they might fuck up the ‘immunity’ thing and kill themselves. This would just result in some gay shit where O2 will Literally take fucking years to kill, just so that you do 40% damage out of 60 people group and get vit pot or something. No thanks.

Please, don’t nerf buffs and seals. Nerf base stats or swords or something.

I don’t really have any objections on this CC immune thing personally, but I think this will affect how RotMG community behaves in dungeons significantly.

Which,
Results,
In,
Even,
More,
Boring,
Gameplay.

Alright sorry for your time I’ll stop ranting about pally nerf now

it’s not like I care since I barely play anyways… but it’s a good game nonetheless, and i want it to stay that way.


#169

it depends, even pixie sword will get a dps buff on minions with high def (note that high def is considered even when the minions have armored). You can find minions listed by their def from pfiffels site, they are quite many of them. Furthermore, the unmaxed characters will benefit the most on that as they usually do very low damage per hit.


#170

Melee is the fastest and cleanest way to go for both Tomb and Ice Tomb. As long as you’re popping keys in private it absolutely is great for a Tomb event.

None of this is complicated stuff. None of this is hard to manage. Especially not now that we have things like Electric pet and MHeal that allows for perma-everything.

Thanks for admitting that it’s only a matter of personal preference and not objective fact.

I can’t order you to do anything but please, at least give melee a try before you start shitting on them. There’s a reason why every boss past a certain point got 100% Stun immunity and Jugg was the most duped item in the entire game. Hint: it wasn’t because melees were bad.


#171

OMEGALUL

What do I even have to say, RotMG community says that fucking Cloryx the mad bleach 2 is AnTi mElEe, And also, LH bosses are more Melee friendly than other high level dungeons, so fuck that.

So, you are those type of people… Now I see…


for once I agree completely with @RMGnoob with this melee argument.


#172

Melee is the fastest and cleanest way to go for both Tomb and Ice Tomb. As long as you’re popping keys in private it absolutely is great for a Tomb event.

Lol don’t make me laugh. The vast majority of tombs are dirty and why would you pass up a nexus tomb?

None of this is complicated stuff. None of this is hard to manage. Especially not now that we have things like Electric pet and MHeal that allows for perma-everything.

It doesn’t have to be complicated. It just has to be more challenging than the other rotmg classes. And melees are more challenging than that other rotmg classes. You basically can’t dispute this.

Thanks for admitting that it’s only a matter of personal preference and not objective fact.

We have lots of facts. None of them can be used to conclusively prove that melees are the best class.

We know for a fact that melees deal more damage. We know for a fact that they have more armor.

By that logic if Deca made a void blade class with 0 range and more armor that dealt more damage it would be the best class? Wrong.

We also know for a fact that melee has low range.

Range matters. And for the several reasons stated, melee can be seen as the most dangerous class to play and therefore the worst.


#173

Just because melee’s range is bad doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad.
If that range is made up for with far superior tanking capabilities and stupidly high damage output, basically anything that isn’t hard to approach will get completely wrecked within seconds.
Besides, even if they get hurt, pets will easily heal that up - and their higher vitality sans Paladin’s only contributes to this more.

Sure, ranged classes can stand from a safer distance, but range starts to matter a lot less if there is no safe distance and everyone is clumped together in a small radius (f.e. Oryx 2’s Dance phase).


#174

Just because melee’s range is bad doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad.

My point is that deca has no metrics that say melee is automatically the best class.

My opinion is that it’s the worst.

If that range is made up for with far superior tanking capabilities

The marble seal has blessed all classes with excellent tanking capabilities in group play.

Besides, even if they get hurt, pets will easily heal that up - and their higher vitality sans Paladin’s only contributes to this more.

Every class benefits from pets.

The biggest issue that pets have created are instapop deaths. Basically unless you die in one hit your divine pet will heal you right up to full.

And melees are most likely to instapop.

There is no boss that instapops you at range 9.

Lots of bosses can instapop you at range 3 and below.


#175

You mentioned “experienced players”, therefore it’s completely fair to bring up players with better organization and resources than the norm who can easily chain private dungeons.

Are you seriously going to tell me you think a Warrior, even without Jugg, is harder to play than Ninja? that you think Paladin is harder to use properly than Trickster?

No it hasn’t. You need a Paladin to use it. It’s not an item you can use on every class.

Not all to the same extent. Melees are much better with pets because they were supposed to be high risk, high reward. Pets remove most of the risks and thus make them way more powerful.

Stun immunity had to be added to this game. Abyss farming had to be reworked and Sewers had to be made as a complete opposite. Most of this game’s post-pet history has been a direct result of melees suddenly becoming the most powerful and popular classes.

Maybe if you had actually played melees yourself, you would understand.


#176

I think you’re misunderstanding half of my point. I wasn’t calling all of the UTs I listed there weak, some are rare and giving them a buff would make that class stronger by itself without needing to rely on other classes for the buffs. When I pitched it as an idea my intention was to buff the class through some of its abilities, not buffing the abilities themselves


#177

Holy crap, I forgot that tiered shields give same duration stun. Still, the point remains for tiered shields vs Scutum, and for other abilities like mystic stasis. A bunch of UT items like the bee quiver with slow or fulmi, same thing. They lose a lot of what makes them worth using. I just hate the fact that you’ll be punished now for using the more powerful effects.

And in general, I guess my problem with this whole update is that it just breaks immersion. Why would an enemy you’ve bashed over the head with a shield suddenly become immune? You’d think someone who just got smashed would be less likely to get up, not stronger because of it (and especially not extra strong because they got hit by the longer duration effect). Same for player immunity. Why should I get a deus ex machina style power up after being paralyzed? It makes no sense thematically, even if it solves certain playability issues.

I’ve always like how Realm could be completely unforgiving, because you couldn’t just screw around in some areas. The fact you can get perma paralyzed and instantly crushed right now isn’t a bad thing, necessarily, because it’s part of what provides real danger to mid level areas like mountain temple, which wouldn’t hardly be a threat otherwise. I just want a better solution than this silliness, something that doesn’t try to get rid of that danger entirely. That’s why I was thinking a vitMod that lowered the duration of status effects would make more sense, as well as be something much more flexible to balance as far as the coding goes. Same thing for monsters. It just makes more sense to me that some low defense/vitatlity highlands mob is going to be easy to perma stun and grind into the ground, but O2 can take a shield bash to the face and only flinch for a quarter of a second. Why would they get the same immunity after getting hit? The Void Entity on the other hand is a giant ball of evil magic or whatever, and I can see a shield bash just phasing straight through him, so thematically it makes sense that he might be completely immune to certain statuses.

I agree endgame content should be the ultimate test of skill, but again…how does making bosses vulnerable to certain statuses, then giving them an immunity, improve this? So far as I can tell, it only makes battles longer and more chaotic, not more interesting. More than that, there’s less skill involved here, not more, because you’ll be spending three quarters of your time dodging things while waiting for the boss immunity to wear off, which just sounds annoying as hell to me.


#178

What’s wrong with a knight being a bland tank class when the boss is Stun immune? No, seriously, why should any class be entitled to always be useful? That’s part of what forces people to play different classes, because they have different niches they fit into. Part of the reason Realm is fun for me is the fact that some classes can be absolute gods in the right situation and then get completely stomped in the next.


#179

Are you seriously going to tell me you think a Warrior, even without Jugg, is harder to play than Ninja? that you think Paladin is harder to use properly than Trickster?

Right now my tickster is in the top 40 for fame. It’s much easier to play than melee. Give it a nil armor a deca and dancing prism and you have lots of def and hp. The extra speed is also very helpful for dodging.

The ninja definitely struggles to find a place in the game. I still think it is safer than a melee, especially with a ray katana. That said it could definitely use buffs. And nerfing melee isn’t going to help ninjas see the light of day.

No it hasn’t. You need a Paladin to use it. It’s not an item you can use on every class.

You only need 2 or 3 people with marble seals for an 80 person halls run.

Melees are essential for successful runs. We can agree on that. However, that doesn’t mean they’re the safest class to play.

Like I said before I’m grateful that knights stun the crusade commanders. But if you’re trying to play as safe as possible you don’t want to be the person that has to go in and stun.

Stun immunity had to be added to this game. Abyss farming had to be reworked and Sewers had to be made as a complete opposite. Most of this game’s post-pet history has been a direct result of melees suddenly becoming the most powerful and popular classes.

I never played the game before stun immunity so I can’t comment too much on this.

The thing is stun isn’t op as much as it is a necessity.
Basically you need to stun the crusader or you’re going to be in trouble.

Maybe if you had actually played melees yourself, you would understand.

Oh I play my melees I just don’t take them into lods/tombs/halls.


#180

Oh no! not my precious immersion in a pixel game! Will someone please think of the children?!?

Daggers have more range than swords, what the fuck is up w/ that?

You clearly haven’t gotten destroyed by 6 bowmen you had no clue were just off-screen in a mountain temple. If the minions are anything to go by, it’s like, just below the (intended) difficulty of shatters - not a godlands dungeon.

Giving them immunities will force people to stop spamming their abilities and think about when they should use them, or suffer the consequences, which is basically something they haven’t known since (functional) pets were introduced. Either that, or turn every troll from a mystic main into any-class-with-a-debuff main, I’m not really sure which.

for all the changes that have been put through testing (both public and private) and the leaks that I’m not entirely convinced were accidents, I sincerely doubt they’d put status immunities resistances in the game w/o adjusting for time it’d take to kill the damn thing.

@Volc do… you mean adding passive stats? to buff every ability of a certain class, both the tiered and the UTs? if not that, I don’t understand what you mean by “to buff the class through some of its abilities, not buffing the abilities themselves”. If you did, why did you mention the UTs at all? It’s fine if a UT makes a class strong for a few specific purposes if it loses out on something else - it makes your class stronger by diversifying your toolkit, if done right, not just by sheer brute force.


#181

There’s certain levels of realism that vary with each kind of fantasy game, being heavily influenced by the kind of game they are. Games like Skyrim would require more realism due to it being an Action RPG game, which puts it on the same playstyle of Assassin’s Creed, but adds non-realistic things such as dragons and magic. Swords being very accurate in a game like that makes a lot of sense.

Realm, however, is a bullet hell*, and requires less realism; but, some realism is still very healthy for the game. If you look at each class on their own, with the exception of Ninja(Kabam bad lol), each of them fall into what they’re meant to be very well. Wizard is a mage, so using spells makes a lot of sense. Priest is a… priest, and they were known for being “healers” in the medieval days. Warriors are your main type of offense, and makes sense that they’re not only the strongest, but the fastest. So on, so forth.

However, if you were to add TOO much realism, then the entire game would be very, very out of balance. Swords would hit harder and reach longer than daggers, making daggers more or less unusable, bows would take forever to fire, and would probably need to have arrows picked back up, katanas would be nearly the same as swords, etc etc.

Not to mention, bullets. How are you going to fit realism to swords, daggers, and a lot of other items, in a game where everything fires bullets?