PT: Oryx 3, Bard, and Livestream

#205

this is O3 and bard testing not lh testing

#206

hey, thats my footage! that was literally my first real go at it, i need to further analyze the footage so i understand it better myself lol

#207

Anyways, here are my thoughts on the midbosses in Sanc:

  • Gemsbok: Heā€™s the hardest by far to solo, but feels decent to fight in a group.The teleporting could be made a bit less intense, as right now most group strats are based around huddling in one spot and cheesing him with decoys.
  • Leucoryx: Feels incomplete. Has way, way more safe spots than the other two bosses, and his second half isnā€™t much harder than his first half.
  • Dammah: Probably the most balanced of the fights, feels about right in difficulty all the way through, though his phases are a bit hard to read.

Once I study the phases more, iā€™ll post further feedback.

#208

I havenā€™t played nearly as much as I would have liked to, but I have thoroughly enjoyed a majority of what Iā€™ve done so far. I have soloed Dammah and Leucoryx, with Dammah being my new favorite boss battle in the game. Leucoryx, while obviously still in development, is looking awesome so far.

My criticisms of the aspects PT that Iā€™ve played:

  1. Gemsbokā€™s teleporting is really, really infuriating to fight against. I read somewhere that it was to split up group DPS which is a great idea, but even when he teleports to me, I can barely land 5-6 shots on a Paladin (obviously more in a group but w/ scaling it would be kinda balanced out).
    I also do not know Gemsbokā€™s counter mechanism, someone mentioned it being the 3 coins but from the attempts Iā€™ve done, the coins are indistinguishable. If this is the case (if someone could correct me it would be much appreciated), that makes countering Gemsbok relatively RNG based. Making the counter-coin smaller, larger or even shaded differently as an indicator would be amazing.

  2. The mobs that teleport are an amazing mechanic, but consistency with their teleports is a bit iffy. What I mean by this is that predicting their movement relies heavily on the minimap at the moment as the delay upon reappearing is fairly short (although not unreasonable). If there was a clearer indicator for their teleportation (something like the timer for the lightning beams but potentially a different color?) would work really well.

  3. Iā€™m not quite sure how to phrase this as I donā€™t know all of the mob names, but the blue spawner from the Oryx Ambassador looks like an average enemy shot. What I mean by this is that there are mobs such as that giant green sphere that shoots sickening shots; something easy to see and react to. This specific attack looks as if its just gonna be an average attack and some may not notice until its too late. A more unique visual to distinguish this would be great, maybe even just increasing the sprite size would work.

Video for reference of the mob: https://gfycat.com/teemingzigzagbobolink

  1. I want to preface this by saying I have not completed O3 yet, the furthest Iā€™ve made is to the Celestial Strength phase. The first thing I wanted to bring up was something that seems more like a bug/oversight than anything else. During his dancing phase in which he spawns the Red Scarabs that move away from him, the scarabs can actually stack up on a wall if O3 is close enough. In the clip I provide, while I am not directly affected by this, it can be an extremely difficult mechanism to fight against. For reference, the phase I am referring to occurs at around the 17 second mark:

https://gfycat.com/halfpartialhawaiianmonkseal

O3 moving at around the 23 second mark while still doing this phase is a rather important issue because it causes the scarabs to stack up as he charges.

At around the 39-40 second mark, he enacts this phase again but is fairly close to a wall this time. As shown, the scarabs stack up and do not despawn. I apologize if Iā€™m making a mountain out of a mole hill with this, but it just seems like an aspect of the fight that really canā€™t be fought against by the player.

  1. Another aspect of the O3 fight I wanted to discuss was the Celestial Strength phase. I honestly think that the mechanic of that phase itself is fine, its just the damage needs to be lowered by a fair amount. The most infamous shot from this phase is the one that does 325 armor piercing damage. The issue from my perspective is that this shot is being used in conjunction with various other attacks that all deal substantial amounts of damage, making any small mistake extremely punishing if not lethal. I donā€™t think the shot should be removed, but if toned down to maybe 250-275 even, it would be great. I feel the biggest reason for toning down this phaseā€™s damage is just because not every class can get to 900-1000 HP, robed classes hovering around 850+. The reason the Void Spinners that do 425 base damage isnā€™t an issue is because more often than not, those are the only shots on the screen. Obviously the dodging is very different from both fights and honestly, the dodging aspect of both isnā€™t bad. It just feels very harsh to have a perma death game require near perfection to survive one phase of an already difficult fight and dungeon. That being said, the dungeon itself has had a lot of work and care put into it, its honestly just amazing and these boss fights as well as the new mechanics are an amazing breath of fresh air.

  2. I also wanted to provide some feedback on the Bard. I think the class is very well balanced as is, with its stats actually fitting extremely well. I also really, really like the concept of its ST, with the lute gaining attributes with more items from the set equipped. Its a new take on STs that actually makes the tier stand out, not be similar or better than UTs in many instances. I think the bow is interesting but I didnā€™t find it that fun to use when playing on testing.
    One thing that would benefit the class greatly is incorporating wismod onto either the range, duration or both for its abilities. The range increase provided by the class, while not crazy, is noticeable and does feel nice to have. Adding defense to its tiered abilities is also just a great benefit to the class as it isnā€™t like traditional robe classes that have good range. Overall, the class is solid; not overpowered or underpowered to me.

Some last notes: The content on the PT is really, really good. Everything has flaws and the ones that I found personally really arenā€™t too glaring. All the people that worked on both of these projects did a fantastic job, from the art to the fights, you guys are awesome!

#209

ā€¦so donā€™t worry, those will most certainly be replaced with something more readable. Maybe a similar portal to the one spawned by the other minions.

Honestly, I really hope that the movement in that phase is just removed altogether, or maybe made so Oryx does a small swirl in place so itā€™s a little trickier to dodge, if anything.

#210

is testing closed right now?

#211

Oh my bad on missing the issue with aesthetics. It actually looked like it fit in which is why I interpreted it that way. All of the art within the dungeon is really just outstanding, it doesnā€™t look like anything else in the game but that isnā€™t a bad thing.

#212

Alright, having experienced the fight some more (and having completed it multiple times now), I think some of the complaints that have been made about the rage phase are a bit unwarranted because dramatic nerfs to it such as nerfing Oryxā€™s damage or removing the pet stasis will ultimately ruin the point of the phase (it is a survival phase, it is supposed to be hard). I have a few suggestions for how to make the phase more tolerable so that DECAā€™s vision of non-discord/unorganized groups being able to complete the dungeon can actually be a reality.

The main issue I see with the desperation move is the position of the portals. Itā€™s extremely poor design to have the portals circle right where the group is expected to be dodging. A large majority of the deaths that I have seen in the runs have been due to people sitting on the pet stasis portals. I believe the position of the portals should be moved to be on the inside of the room, with the pet stasis shots shooting in the same pattern but outward towards the group instead of inward.

This is what the rotation looks like currently with the large grey dots being the portals and the grey circle being the way they circle around the room. The orange lines with the arrows pointing in being the lines of pet stasis shots going towards the center of the room.
image

The problem occurs when you add Oryx into the mix. The blue circle here represents Oryxā€™s rotation and the blue dot represents Oryx himself. When Oryx comes around swinging his shotgun at the players thereā€™s almost no room to dodge between the portal behind you and Oryx in front of you. If you back up, you stand on the portal and tank several pet stasis shots (which will likely kill you if you also tank a bit of the shotgun). Thereā€™s not really any room to stand when this happens and it is worsened by the fact that the portals are a darkish grey color as opposed to the shots they produce which are bright orange and very visible.
image

So what I advise is moving the rotating portals to be on the inside of Oryxā€™s shotgun and have them shoot outwards towards the player. This removes the threat of feeling ā€œpinchedā€ between Oryx and the portals and the visibility issues are entirely removed with this fix. Without the portals, it also makes the phase more about you versus Oryx instead of you versus Oryx, a portal, lightning, and oh shit thereā€™s another portal coming oops I sat on it and Iā€™m dead.

Additionally, I might move Oryxā€™s rotation in one tile so thereā€™s a little more breathing room. I really like the difficult dodging of his shotgun, but there are circumstances with the way the fight is currently where you get cornered against the wall of pet stasis and the shotgun and have literally nowhere to move. If the fight (and the loot) is to be accessible by most players, there needs to be a little more breathing room.

So hereā€™s what the phase and the rotations would look like with my changes.
image

Additionally, this would fix the issue that the phase currently has where when Oryx is staggered at the end, you would now be immediately able to run in and get damage rather than having to wait out the wall of pet stasis and then not have any time to actually damage him while heā€™s staggered.

To simply put it, having the shots not all meet in the center fixes a load of things and by placing the portals on the inside of Oryxā€™s rotation youā€™re essentially making the entire phase significantly more reasonable (while still maintaining the challenge that it originally presented). Also Iā€™m not entirely sure if moving Oryxā€™s rotation in a tile or 2 would be necessary with the fixes to the portals. The change to the portals may be enough of a change to keep the dodging difficult while also being more reasonable. Also, with the portals now in the center, it opens up the option of dodging in the very center of the room (for the masochists who want to challenge themselves). This option would remove the threat of pet stasis but would make it so youā€™re right up in Oryxā€™s face having to dodge every single piece of the shotgun. It could be an interesting alternative to dodging on the outside of the room for those who enjoy the extra challenge!

Also, if anyone was interested, hereā€™s what the new phase (in bold) looks like over top the current version (the less visible lines).
image

Additional note to devs who might read this feedback:
From my experience playing bullet hell games, Iā€™ve noticed that the best boss fights are ones where the focus is on the bullets rather than the origin of the bullets. What I mean by this is that the threat shouldnā€™t be the thing that is creating the bullets, but rather, the bullets themselves. With this phase, the threat is currently the two origins of bullets (Oryx, and the portals) due to their proximity to you. I think my change correctly addresses this issue by giving the player more breathing room and making the focus on ā€œplayer vs. bulletsā€ rather than ā€œplayer vs. thing that can kill you just because you backed up a little too far.ā€ In my opinion, Marble Colossus and Void Entity as well as the new Dammah fight do an excellent job of making the fight ā€œplayer vs. bulletsā€ and I think most of the Oryx 3 fight does as well. It just needs some tweaks to its hardest phase because currently, the thing that makes it hard is your proximity to the origin of bullets rather than the bullets themselves.

#213

I totally agree on this change.I have died more by backing up into the portal than by oryx himself.
Also the one gap those pet stasis shots have often forces you to get close to oryx and then die by shotguns.

#214

Hereā€™s proof that Leucoryx is both very safespottable and very tankable:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=p5EzFMjyoCs&t=300
Here a paladin safespots AND facetanks Leucoryx

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-fSdvYUVJ4U
Even a wizard, the most frail class, with no buffs like mseal, doesnā€™t take much damage from Leucoryxā€™s shots

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Cjdm6t_k3EI&t=65
Even phases that donā€™t seem safespottable at first do have them.

My recommendations? Raise Leucoryxā€™s overall damage, make those anti-safespot blue shots in the back more effective with sicken, and make shots
go where the current safespots are.

#215

Thatā€™s very interesting. This was the mini boss of the three that I hated most. Itā€™s a terrible fight. You canā€™t tell half the shots are going to appear if itā€™s your first time. That is not good. I enjoyed the gem/portal guy. This candlestick fight was ass. Iā€™m glad they made safespots and it able to be tanked. If they remove those safe spots and increase shot damage, Iā€™ll just wait until someone does a petless solo video and copy that. lmao Itā€™s not worth doing the fight when itā€™s soā€¦ non-intuitive.

I also really love that theyā€™re properly making this entire thing able to be soloā€™d but also making it so you really want a group (with healers!) with no DPS walls. God I hate DPS walls. Theyā€™re the worst. Like when Iā€™m in a dungeon like Shats on a weak class and everyone else leaves. I canā€™t solo first boss on a priest dude, you get overrun by stone paladins/mages. Thatā€™s is dogshit design. Iā€™m glad theyā€™re not doing that here.

#216

I just soloed Gemsbok as a pally as well and I agree with you. I think the only frustrating part of the fight is when heā€™s teleports to each side at the beginning and the moment I catch up to him he just teleports shortly after. Due to that short window, I can see people who plays melee a lot getting frustrated. Itā€™s doable but I think if he just stayed put a little longer, itā€™d be slightly easier for melees. Besides that I feel like there can be more during the fight to making it more engaging. I found myself just running in a circle most of the time which got quite boring after a while.

#217

There are some performance issues with the animations. Leucoryx absolutely murders the FPS on my Dell XPS 15, literally the only other game that does this is Apex Legends. Happens when he does the mass lightning strikes and when he does that ring of Armor Break thingy

#218

This. Iā€™m surprised I havenā€™t seen anyone mention this yet. I forgot to. What you said and whenever he switches positions (I think?) in the room I get a gnarly FPS spike. Itā€™s scary as shit but havenā€™t died from it yet.

Itā€™s also INCREDIBLY annoying how quickly the walls come up once a player starts the fight. There should be more time. You shouldnā€™t be forced to rush that quickly.

#219

I also wanted to add can the colors in gemsbook be tuned down theyā€™re very bright and hurt my eyes.

It should be noted that the dungeon uses exponential scaling, so groups of around 10-20 will probably deal with the enemies very fast but super large groups may actually end up being much slower. This applies to the minibosses too.

Another fantastic idea that will tailor to discords (that can control group composition) rather than a random group (which could be larger depending on the situation).

#220

I realized that Iā€™ve given a ton of feedback on Oryx Sanctuary but have yet to say anything about bard so letā€™s get into that a little bitā€¦

I really love this class! Itā€™s a great addition with a very unique ability item that is both helpful and fun. I love the UT items (especially the snake lute because omg that speed is insane). The ST set seems a bit overpowered in terms of defensive capabilities but, honestly, most ST items in the game are already overpowered so itā€™s not like itā€™s pushing any boundaries that havenā€™t already been crossed.

Iā€™m really excited to see the drop locations of the UT and ST items. I can only assume one of them will be a new event white which would be extremely exciting!! :slight_smile:

I really am happy that DECA went and made a class that didnā€™t feel like a ā€œjack-of-all-tradesā€ kind of class. Samurai often comes across as that to many people (although Samurai is one of my favorite classes) but Bard definitely will find its niche at all levels of gameplay.

The one thing I would change is maybe increase the range boost, just a little. I know on the initial testing it was a 1.5x multiplier. I think that is a bit much, but maybe crank it up to 1.35x or 1.4x? 1.25x is almost completely unnoticeable to the point that it becomes overshadowed by the other use of the ability, energized.

If this class is to become a staple class in high level dungeons like Lost Halls and Oryx Sanctuary, it really will need a little more utility with the range buff (especially for O3). The energized buff is perfect though. I wouldnā€™t change it at all.

One more thingā€¦ I love the default character sprite for Bard! Itā€™s so perfect in representing what a Bard should look like. Iā€™m really excited to see some of the additional skins that come out over the next several months for the class. Thereā€™s such a variety of things that are music-related that could be done for these skins! Imagine a Beatles Bard or a punk rock Bard or a Beethoven Bard! Thereā€™s so many options for things that are music related and it will be really interesting to see what the team comes up with!

On a side note, I would like to talk about the art of Oryx Sanctuary for just a second to wrap up this post. The aesthetics of Oryx Sanctuary are excellent and I canā€™t wait to see what it looks like in production when itā€™s entirely finished. It really does feel like how an upgraded Wine Cellar should feel and I love that about it. I know that it was stated that there are still some ongoing changes with how the dungeon looks and Iā€™m looking forward to seeing the final product. I trust that the remaining changes to the dungeonā€™s tileset and objects will make the dungeon one of the prettiest weā€™ve seen. It definitely feels good to have a super high level dungeon that isnā€™t just square, grey rooms connected by grey hallways (Iā€™m looking at you Lost Halls).

With that said, I think this might be my last post on this thread unless I suddenly think of something else that needs to be said. I hope some of my feedback gets through to the dev team and I canā€™t wait to see the final product in the coming weeks!

Thanks!

#221

Someone has probably already asked thisā€¦

Will T13 weapons and T14 armors become tradable?

#222

I havenā€™t had much of a chance to test the bard out but I have a couple pointers to address.

For starters, I didnā€™t notice any difference in range when using the lute. I donā€™t know if itā€™s a glitch or something else but I wasnā€™t seeing any range difference. Hopefully that will be corrected.

One big flaw I would like to address is how the lutes have a cooldown a la helms and cloaks. This basically allows a user with a powerful pet to sustain a consistent buff with little to no mana loss. Combined with the MP regen from Energized, it really makes it pointless for the bard to be a robe class and have the higher mana capacity associated with such. Every other robe class has a spammable ability. I donā€™t see why the lutes should have a cooldown longer than their duration.

@Megayeah opined about some balance concerns, and they really worded it better than I could.

#223

No, they donā€™t plan on unsoulbounding them.

#224

Well that sucks