[Spoilers] Melee Nerfs, Warrior ST Rework, Endless Torment Updated and more


With this change, we can finally see vitmod being placed into effect because warrior and knight have been fairly effectively subdued (if it was up to me, i would nerf the warrior even more but whatevs) and make samurai and ninja, with 60 base vit each, along with ggarments, +7 vit, actually useful


Really not happy about this proposed nerf to damaging and berserk for a few reasons

  1. (low hanging fruit) As mentioned already, this affects everything in the game that currently uses damaging or berserk, not just melee. They’re all going to have to be manually changed or you’ll end up nerfing Mystic.
  2. Nerfing both damaging and berserk at the same time reduces group DPS from 2.25x to 1.44x, 64% of the old values. This is going to make HP scaled dungeons feel even more like a slog than they already do, unless you go through every HP scaled enemy in the game and rebalance their scaling (or better yet, remove it).
  3. Reducing the effects to 1.2x brings up the question of ease of application. Curse is trivial to apply to enemies and it grants the same 20% damage increase. Damaging is also pretty easy to apply because high tiered seals have massive AOE. But berserk? Everyone has to be very, very close to the warrior to get it, and I don’t believe 20% is enough of a DPS increase to warrant it. Warrior already feels really bad to try to buff the group, but with such a small increase it’s not going to be worth it
  4. Nerfing Damaging is a buff to Weak. Because Damaging modifies your weapon DPS it’s the only way to deal more damage during weakness, and I already don’t like how little counterplay most status effects have.

Necro skull nerf is pointless, it’s so stupidly rare that you’ll never see it and it’s not even that good as it is.

Stun nerf is okay, but you MUST, MUST, MUST make it clear when the stun’s going to wear off, and when it can be reapplied. YOU HAVE TO DO THIS otherwise the effect is going to be 100% worthless, especially at bosses like oryx 2 where if you fuck up regarding stuns you will die instantly.


that’s not true afaik, weak undoes damaging entirely like daze undoes berserk. and even if damaging does do something through weakness, berserk and curse still work just fine while you’re weakened so it’s definitely not “the only way to deal more damage during weakness”. don’t see the problem that one, and even if it is one just dodge.


Some people are saying RIP warrior, but the dps disparity remains the same, the class still will dish out the most damage and remain top dog along with Knight crawling up the ranks. I think Pally will still be a fine choice, so in the end all we have is a group dps nerf which will presumably extended the time of Lost halls runs which leads to less loot resulting is less keys bought outside events. (On that last part I’m not even sure I’m joking or not…)


Just dodge :slight_smile:


… isn’t that what I just said?


This is scary… not sure how I feel about this yet…


Weak does not undo damaging, please stop spreading this misinformation. I see it constantly, even on the wiki, and it’s wrong. Try it yourself in the highlands with a paladin, there’s an abundance of dark elves that will weak you for free.


I did it and it clearly shows that damaging does nothing while being weakend


I welcome a nerf to Warrior’s dps, and general group dps. I feel warrior is a bit too powerful, and group run dungeons are too easy (Lost Halls).

With that I can support a Paladin seal nerf, but I don’t think it deserves to be as heavily nerfed as warrior.

However, mystic and necromancer solo play being nerfed by this makes little sense to me. I’d much rather not have the damaging/berserk nerfs at all if that’s the case.

A nerf specific to warrior, Paladin, and group dps would be what I’d like to see. A sword nerf, or only nerfing Helms and Seals.

I see DECA is aiming for some kind of consistency with the changes, but they have been willing to be inconsistent before with the Bloody Cloak (and new Tome of Furor) applied buffs.

Please choose to not accept nerfing mystic and necromancer as a side effect of targeting other classes. I think they are already great as is in solo play.


Everybody needs to stop whistle blowing over Mystic and ST skull/Conflict. Yes, DECA is tinkering with melee buffs in an effort to balance them. No, these changes are not set in stone nor do they reflect a finished product. I 100% guarantee if this were to go through they’d change Orbs & ST Skull/Conflict to give +Dex/Atk in a similar fashion to Bloody Cloak. Why would they need to have this change put in a test build focused around melees? They don’t. Calm down and talk about melees.

From the way half these posts read it’s almost like it’s a bunch of warriors trying to use mystic as an excuse to not nerf the ridiculous dmg of melees. Balance doesn’t work that way when you can do literally anything you want to the game, all these non-existent mystics are NOT going to be indirectly nerfed. Please go post about why your Warrior should deal 5x the dmg of a priest because ‘change is scary’.

On the topic of the nerfs themselves, it’s not even that extreme. Once again it’s a nerf focused on reducing group dmg. What’s wrong with that? Are people really so adverse to playing the game that they get up in arms over having to shoot a boss for 5 seconds instead of 2 seconds? I doubt this will even be the last change DECA does. They seem really invested in totally revamping the game’s meta this MotMG, and I’m really excited to see what’s in store. Who cares if your warrior shoots slower than before when it gets a whole new mechanic instead? Calm down, breathe, don’t look at numbers or stare at graphs, just take things in stride and evolve, adapt, and overcome.


It’s difficult to judge outcomes when lots of things change at the same time. I wish they’d do such things incrementally.

The buffs: I like them being quite high effect, since it means you are relatively punished more for not being a mixed party. Take that away and why bother coordinating if it’s only a minor increase. I like the idea @Mynamerr said to maybe move the party buffs on some new classes (but ofc I like any idea if it gives more classes…). But maybe 1.2x will still be fine. Who knows, I’ve never tried it.

It’s also difficult to judge when we don’t know why the changes are being done. Is it to cause people to choose swords less than now? To reduce steamroll/group DPS? To rebalance pala/warrior vs knight? To rebalance berzerk/dmging vs curse/exposed? Each goal would have a different way of achieving it (eg. could keep seal’s dmging on self at 1.5x but party effect lower to 1.2x, could simply reduce/increase max ATT/DEX stats of the class). What about the +HP from seal (which is probably the main thing unbalancing pala vs the other swords). Etc.

I think I just yearn for the days when they’d simply change things, no warning, we’d have a Dev message “Hi game, we think X is too powerful/drop rate too high/too easy/too tough so we’ve changed it, see what you think”. Not this supertanker approach where things take months to happen. Let us have a try and we can give true feedback (ahem testing!), then push it out knowing it’s a good change.

I might sound like I’m anti-change, I really am not, it’s just frustrating how some of the things that are really affecting the game (HP Scale) more than anything else, seemingly isn’t being revisited.


For the record I was referring to public dungeons and realms (where the average pala count at least on EUW is 1) not organised pops which will obviously min-max their set-ups.


That’s really a subject of another topic, that unorganised pub halls are very unsuccessful.


I think I just yearn for the days when they’d simply change things, no warning

I agree wholeheartedly, I’d even venture that these kinds of ‘leak’ posts are harmful to the production of meaningful change. Of course people are against change, it’s only natural; however it must be considered that those against any particular change are going to be the most vocal. Giving them a platform to shout down changes (that are neither complete nor final!) gives both the community and the developers a biased impression of what the community thinks of balance changes.

Just push it through to testing! It’s sad that the sword nerfs never made it to testing, hopefully not because of public backlash from the ‘leak’. I don’t side with any particular belief about the melees but its a shame that those changes didn’t make it even for the sake of ruling them out - ‘I guess we nerfed melees too hard, now we can consider other viable ways of shifting power around’. This kind of discussion is not only healthy, but refreshing for the game.

I feel like no one reads Niegel’s ‘very subject to change’ pre-text. :frowning:


facts my dude, this motmg is gonna be amazing


About damn time the -10 def is gone, always thought that was a ridiculous amount of def to LOSE. And as far as the shots being added with full set, that’s pretty cool. BUT, nerfing damaging and berserk is pretty lame. That’s not gonna go over too well.


So Warrior would only get speedy from helm and Pala would only get HP+ and HoT?


Maybe warrior would also get some small other bonus


Maybe if the testing servers were up more and there were of a constant presence on the server, and changes were implemented on there (and testing were more long term before actually implementing the changes), these changes would seem less jarring and odd.