He hasn’t. They’re both using the default profile picture so you only see the first letter of their names, but Samcw and Skandling are different people.
The difference here is that pservs are separate from the actual game, meaning they generally have much less of an impact.
If some guy hosts his own private sandbox on his computer and maybe invites a few friends from time to time, that’s basically harmless. Still not a very smart thing to download a pserv kit from a community notorious for using malware, but not a problem for the game itself or the community at large.
It’s only when you throw money into the mix that things get complicated.
ah yes my mistake, but my main point is that I still fail to see his point about hammering in how hard to stop these people it would
he has said how ineffective trying to stop it is, which I just do not understand. As i said
so again what I wonder is what is the point he is trying to make by constantly responding with how it will never be stopped. I said its illegal, which it is.
Stealing is stealing and that is what I am saying. I never asked or cared about the difficulties of removing these sites .
Though it seems like he is defending these severs, using the reason that they are hard to stop as a reason for them being alright and need to just be left alone
Well no in a perfect world they should not be left alone as they are just stealing someone property (no need to tell me how it wont happen, i got it after 2 times)
I agree that it’s not ethical to even have a “private server” of a stolen game especially when people give money to it. But honestly, I’m just done with DECA at this point; with all the chest events, I just can’t stand the game anymore. Of course I will return to the game when unity comes. But if for some reason they keep the same shitty chest events I might actually quit the game. It breaks my heart to even say that. This has been my game on and off since I was really young. Please please please. DECA once unity comes, you’ll have plenty of money. Meanwhile, I will enjoy what is honestly a better version of the game than the current prod. Sure DECA brings in lots of money with these events, but they drive away veterans (at least in my experience).
Stealing is when I take something physically that does not belong to me. Pickpocketing, robbery, shoplifting, that sort of thing. If caught I can expect to be treated as a criminal, and could be taken to court, thrown in jail, given a criminal record. Most people think that is right, as those that steal from the person are among the worst in society and deserve to be punished.
Copyright infringement is totally different though. Most importantly is not a criminal matter. You won’t normally end up in court, in jail for copying something. No matter how obvious and blatant your copyright infringement the police aren’t interested as they don’t have the laws to prosecute you.
It is a civil matter. It is up to the copyright owner to sue you. They can only sue to stop you and for damages, you won’t get a criminal record or jail time (though you might later if you ignore all attempts to get you to stop or pay).
This also makes it expensive. Rather than the limitless resources of the state pursuing wrongdoers you have to pay lawyers and do all the work yourself. This can be expensive, making it only worth doing if your target is rich or if the amount of harm they are doing is serious, and if you think any court decision will be enforceable – in digital piracy cases it’s often impossible to close down all piracy.
So just calling it “stealing” as if it’s all the same is wrong and misleading. It is different in many ways, handled in two totally separate ways by the court which have very little in common.
A great example of copyright infringement right here. Japans Kimba and Americans the lion king which was of course a blatant copy
I would much rather have my wallet stolen then my lifes work taken. To people working at DECA this is their job and their passion. Seeing it be stolen and their assets reused must be awful
The justice system will persecute though and if the police are not involved does that give you the right to commit crime?
Nope, it is stealing. It is most definitely stealing. Copyright infringement is MANY times worse then someone stealing a jacket from a store.
You are the only one trying to be misleading here. Trying to brush this off as if somehow better then shoplifting or common thievery, because that all it is. Just with more steps to it
I disagree strongly. Being physically deprived of something, whether as a corporation or individual, is far worse than an illegal digital copy which deprives you of nothing and which can happen without you even aware of it.
You don’t have to take my word for it. The legal system says as much. You physically rob something, you can be thrown in jail. You make an illegal copy and the police don’t care at all, won’t take it seriously or consider it a crime.
I personally don’t use pservers for personal, moral reasons: I see the pservers’ use of old Realm code as illegitimate and a simple copy+paste of RotMG. Are the laws regarding this and robbery the same? No. Is it worthwhile for DECA to press the issue? To me, it doesn’t matter. Taking someone’s work without permission is wrong, and I refuse to support it.
It is true that pservers have added in new content (and changed up some of the old) to make the game different, but it’s basically the same as copying someone else’s homework and changing it up a little to make it look like it’s your own. It’s still an MMO RPG RNG-based permadeath bullet hell with the same game mechanics, the same UI, the same classes and the same general goals with gameplay. It’s RotMG, but with some new dungeons and items added in, which I hardly consider to be different enough to be its own game.
I also don’t like that they’re siphoning off players from the main game, though I do recognize that people are getting tired of the constant events that DECA has provided and are looking for alternatives. I personally am also starting to get bored of it, but I would rather quit playing Realm-style games than play ones that are just illegitimate copies of the original (personal opinion).
no thanks what? If you’re refering to looking at the pserver before saying it’s literally a 1:1 of realm why include me saying “why support Deca” (I don’t actually think people shouldn’t btw)
God forbid I might want to fuck around in a private realm with like 3 people or want to test items I don’t have.
That’s not what Im saying, you’re comparing the loss of over a million overall to a loss of like a couple thousand, most likely no more than 10k overall.
Im taking their word on things that people commonly do or things that literally just make sense.
should I just assume they’re lying about fucking breathing air ffs?
They say they’re going to school, they say they have a job, those aren’t things that are either uncommon or unbelievable in any way.
What proof do you want? do you want them to literally fucking dox themselves and give out their name tag or some shit.
Assuming literally everything other people say is a lie is even worse.
Ok? and what about the rest of the games that flat out never get played because they weren’t discovered? and all of the games that just don’t get finished because it takes time for people to make an entire game from nothing.
Literally nobody that’s working on these pservers would be known in any way if they’d just made some tiny game from scratch, working on and expanding from already existent code allows them to
A. reach an audience
and
B. Work on the stuff that actually matters in the game, the end-game.
So what? just because something is worked on because they enjoy it doesn’t mean they have to make everything as hard as possible on themselves.
" A passion project is something you work on (often outside of your chosen career path) that gives you satisfaction, happiness and puts you into a state of flow."
Doesn’t say anything there about taking the hardest path and making everything as hard as possible on yourself.
It’s a passion project, they started it as a tiny server that nobody played and worked their ass(es) off to add new, unique, content.
Just because they started from already existent code doesn’t mean they didn’t start working on it because they enjoyed it, you don’t have to start from 0 to enjoy working on something.
Many people fix old cars as a passion project, so if they start from an already existent car and fix it, build it up, and make it better that isn’t a passion project? just because they didn’t make every single component from fucking scratch?
Im not arguing against that, Im arguing against you (and others) saying “oh it doesn’t take any work or skill to run or code from a game if you start of with a bit of code”
Go look at their game, it’s so radically different the fact that they use Rotmg as a base is irrelevant, they’re totally different things other than very base aspects and the sprites (a large portion of which anybody could buy the rights to).
So people shouldn’t support indie devs that aren’t a part of a company?
Because you asked why people would spend their money, and I answered with “they feel like it”
Which I answered, some people want to support them and keep the server running, they feel like they deserve the support.
I did.
You didn’t, it was an exaggeration.
Yes, I do, but just saying it by itself is meaningless.
“Oh hey, you can build your own computer!”
“Well, just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
Just saying that phrase when talking about something isn’t an argument.
I actually haven’t opened mine up for months, and even then it wasn’t public in any way, literally the only people that had the ability to connect was a group of my friends.
How the fuck am I covering my own ass? They literally would only have a text post from me on a public forum if they wanted to attempt to threaten any legal action, at most they have my name, they don’t know where I live, what I look like, what my voice sounds like, anything, even then I’ve already deleted my client so they wouldn’t have anything legitimate to use against me.
Again, how the fuck am I covering my ass? They have literally nothing on me if they would want to do anything legal, and even if they took down the pservers I play I could just go and play literally any other game?
Arguing against something = covering your ass now?
Exactly, how am I covering my ass again?
And you’re ignoring all of the changes they make to that code and additions they make for it themselves, you’re acting as if they’re hosting literally just prod but with a smaller player count.
If I steal your money then you no longer have that money, and if you don’t have direct proof of me taking your money you just have to deal with it, these private servers aren’t directly taking money from Deca, or hardly touching the large majority of their active player base, most of the players, atleast the ones I’ve met and talk(ed) to no longer play prod, and, without the pservers, wouldn’t be playing rotmg in any capacity.
They don’t claim it is, that’s not what it’s trying to be, they’re trying to change and add to a game they enjoy.
My point was that I do not play because I do not see pservers to be different enough from RotMG to be their own games, thus meaning that I do not feel right playing them. The point of my reply was to give my personal reasoning for not playing on pservers, not to pass judgement on what they are trying to make themselves or their purpose for existing.
That makes no sense. That 10k is still fucking lost and the people who lost it would definitely feel that loss. Whether it’s a million or 10k, it’s still wrong.
If I heard someone condoning shoplifting I would wonder if that person shoplifter themselves. Much the same thing here. And because I find pservs wrong, and you defend and support them, it seems to me you take part in (or God fucking forbid RUN) a pserv; which again I feel is wrong.
Still, I was referring to the largest one specifically with this, there’s no reason to think they’re just going to up and leave any time soon, as they’ve been here and using donations to keep their server up for over a year.
Comparing these servers to people shoplifting is stupid, again the amount of “lost” revenue isn’t large at all, and the amount of that that might’ve actually been spent on prod is minuscule.
Yes, I do play pservers, and I don’t think they’re bad.
Yes, god forbid I open a tiny server with a single realm for me and my friends to fuck around on and test out items.
That still doesn’t answer how I might be “covering my ass” Im under literally 0 legal threat as of right now.
It adds up though. Multiple pservers can take a lot of money from prod.
Personally I feel pservers are fine as long as there aren’t transactions taking place. Sure, have a server for people to have fun in. Once there’s money involved it just feels like a ripoff trying to get money off of the original.
I’m not comparing anything. I would really like to know where that 1 mil figure is coming from, because it’s clearly not from my posts.
[What is it with you guys and putting words into my mouth? You’d think with how excruciatingly long my posts already are, there wouldn’t be a need for you to invent more things to respond to.]
A scam is a scam. “It could have been worse” is not the same as “I did nothing wrong”.
Also you gotta factor in the probability of both incidents happening. A 1,000,000 loss that’s very unlikely is not worse than an almost certain 10,000 loss.
It’s not that you should assume everything is a lie, just that you shouldn’t put yourself in a position where you have to blindly trust strangers.
You have to actually try if you want to succeed. Failing and learning from your mistakes is a part of life.
If you want to learn how to make games then try making games.
And then they’ll have learned nothing about actually getting people to keep playing until they reach endgame.
Did they steal those cars? Are they making other people pay to use those cars? Do they act like putting a fresh coat of paint and new headlights on it somehow puts them on the same level as someone who actually creates completely new cars?
Yeah, they had to use RotMG as a base because it was easier, and nobody plays on their server except RotMG players because that was the only way for them to reach an audience, but clearly it’s a radically different thing that should be completely judged on its own merits.
Indie dev is an actual job. Pserv owner isn’t.
No, your answer was that “well, they can do it”. Something that, again, was never in question and doesn’t answer my question.
Which is why I didn’t say it by itself and have given you several arguments why you should not give money to strangers on the internet.
Wanna know what isn’t an argument? Inventing overly exaggerated bullshit I never said in an attempt to make my position look unreasonable. Like you just admitted to doing:
Again, if you’re going to respond then respond to what I’m saying. It’s not that hard.
There are like 3 of them making any “decent” amount from donations (still small, biggest one makes a bit more than the others), every other one of them combined doesn’t likely compare to the money the bigger ones make.
It takes money to keep the server up, people keep ignoring that fact, the money isn’t just going straight to their pockets, they have expenses to pay to keep the server up.
Go back a post or two and look through what I was directly responding to. You were talking about companies in comparison to the pserver owners, I personally thought of companies such as Activision.
Im not, Im responding to you, you said this;
And I said they also weren’t nearly close when it comes to overall money that could be lost.
Im not putting words in your mouth, you never explicitly said anything about the monetary amount but you were comparing them to large companies.
Yes, but where’s the scam? The single pserver Im talking about, and have been talking about, has been around in its current state (not including updates, time since a major change to the base of the game) for over a year and has been accepting donations that entire time, I find it hard to believe they’ve stuck around this long just to take off.
They haven’t scammed anyone so far, calling them scammers is just false.
And why haven’t they taken off? they’ve been around for a long while, why have they continued developing for and paying to keep the server up for this long when they could’ve taken off a while ago? They even closed off their most expensive donation tier.
Im not just blindly trusting them, Im taking them at their word for things that make sense and that literally everyone in developed countries does.
It’s not hard to believe they’re going to school, everyone does that, it’s not hard to believe they have jobs, that’s another thing that’s pretty fucking common, it’s not hard to believe they’re paying for server space, their server is still up and it runs pretty damn well.
That’s not the only way to learn, using existent code is just as legitimate for learning and getting better as making your own code is.
You don’t think they have to try or learn anything new when coding for their server(s)? They’ve implemented things that are completely unique from prod and other servers.
You don’t think they’ve had to fix or rework things, multiple times even?
They have to deal with failing and having to change things, all the time, again, just recently there was a major patch, many items were buffed and nerfed, they’ve even changed prod items.
They’re using someone else’s work as a base for their own, which you said was bad and lazy.
Are these pserver owners making anybody pay if they want to play their server?
Please DM me proof of any somewhat reputable pserver owner or developer saying they’re on the same level as Deca, I want to laugh at their stupidity. Only a couple of pserver devs are on the same level as people from Deca.
It’s not just “a fresh coat of paint” or “new headlights” they’ve changed the base they started with radically.
I didn’t claim it to be.
So what? if you produce or make something in your free time you shouldn’t be respected for any of the work you put into it or supported by the people that liked it?
Man, most people that make and sell art are totally in the wrong then!
Maybe the pserver not being an actual job is why it’s so easy to believe they either go to school or work.
My answer was;
I didn’t just say “they can” I said "they can if they want to, and they feel it’s a good way to spend their money.
What reasons? The only one I actually remember is “they can scam you” and Im too lazy to go re-read our entire conversation.
Just because they can scam you doesn’t mean they will, they’ve been around for a while and haven’t scammed anyone, Im not too worried they’ll start now.
I am responding to what you said, I was using an exaggerated example, I never claimed you said that, it’s just the example that came to my head when I was responding to you.
That’s not the same thing. You’re skipping a lot of important phases in the making of a game by doing this.
Also I’m beginning to question how much knowledge you have in this field.
… so they changed a few stats here and there on some items and that’s somehow an absolute ground-breaking feat in coding?
“They’re not, but really they are.”
Are you saying someone who actually dedicates their life to working full-time on something should be considered the exact same as some kid who tries to ape them in their free time?
“Why did they do that? Oh they just felt like it.”
Again, that’s not an answer.
Look, if you’re going to write giant posts that could be summarized as “YOU DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO YOU’RE NOT MY DAD” then there’s really no point in trying to talk to you.
The only way I would ever consider playing on private servers would be if the actual game was shut down for good, and even then I’d probably go find a real game to play instead of downloading a client from people I can’t trust.
I know that summarization is hard (I struggle with it myself), but could we please shorten our response lengths? Just scrolling past them makes my eyes hurt, and the conversation isn’t going anywhere.
all thats happening is hk is repeating things like “they dont make that much money so its not bad” and “pserv devs changed things so its not stealing”
rmg (the other main participant in this debate) is actually offering extensions onto the topic but its hard to have productive discourse against a brick wall
And? They’re still improving their skills in other very important areas, such as managing and balancing a game and coding items for that game.
I never said their balancing was groundbreaking in any way, does personal improvment require revolutionizing the fucking industry in your opinion?
Their legendary and primal effects, along with their rune system is more complicated that most things in prod, however.
???
Im not one of them, you said that they claimed to be on the level of companies.
Im not saying all, or even a majority, are on that level, but from what some of them have made in comparison to what Deca’s pushed out they’re pretty good, although I don’t know about any Deca employee’s skillsets in anything other than rotmg.
There are a few of them that are, compared to what Deca has made, on the same level as some Deca-employed developers.
That’s not what I’m saying at all, Im saying that, even if they aren’t working full-time on something their work should be appreciated by those who enjoy what they’re working on.
Does everything need some big complicated answer to it?
“Why would they give these people their money?”
“They enjoy the work the put into [something].”
“That’s not an answer!”
What the fuck do you want as an answer? that’s literally why they gave their money to the devs, that and some in game perks but I don’t think anybody is going to spend upwards of $100 if they don’t appreciate the work put into the game by the devs.
???
Im trying to respond to you, I’ve not said that, or anything similar.
Fine, Im not forcing you to dedicate your time to something that I personally enjoy but when you try to act like the hard work the devs put into it is illegitimate then I’m going to argue with you.
Most of them don’t require a download, even then you can just run it in a virtual machine.
I want to get my point across, there’s no reason to browse through a topic that basically started with an argument if you don’t want to see the argument (unless it’s completely off-topic, in which case you can just flag it and be done, you can even mute me if need be, as most of what I do on here is argue my points.)
They don’t make much money, and virtually all of the money they do make wouldn’t have gone to prod in the first place.
Yes, the original code belongs to Deca, im not arguing against that, I’m arguing against the notion that pserver devs just take the code and host it and that’s that, there’s a ton of changes made to the code and saying it’s literally just a straight copy of prod is 100% wrong.
You literally repeated the same line of “Well I don’t feel it’s right” in 2/3 of your responses to me so I don’t think you have any room to talk.
Then you tried to say me and anybody else who defends pservers are “covering our asses” which makes no sense at all, atleast for me.
“Arguing points” and “creating giant text walls” are two very different things. You could actually do a more effective job of communicating your point if you focused on the general message of other users’ responses rather than arguing with fragments of sentences. On many occasions both here and in other threads, I have seen you make illogical, and at times irrelevant, responses to things people have said because you have taken their quote out of context and without looking at their post (or even paragraph) as a whole. If they have a particular sentence or two that requires addressing, that’s fine; quote them. But you have to be able to see the forest for the trees, otherwise arguments like this will continue forever without important points being addressed and resolved.
another thing: the discord for the server we are talking about literally has more members than the r/rotmg discord which is basically the largest prod discord
